Mike Brennan

Any input folks have on maintaining a stable shooting platform or general issues to be aware of would be very welcome.

 

I'll be shooting miniDv (Canon GL2) and Super 8 (for a period feel).

 

thanks in advance,

 

gregg

I have some tips at www.hd24.com

Mike Brennan

the standard infinity will ship for 20k, the XDCAM, in its cheapest setup will be 19,200

Lets not get ahead of ourselves:) as far as I know the infinity camera has not yet produced a picture that mere mortals can see Red rag to GV:)

If it has 1920x1080 progressive ccd with 4:2:2 HDSDI output for the price then it will be a fantastic achievement and it will be the cheapest HD camera let alone HD camcorder.

For comparison,

XDCAM HD is 1/2 inch 1440x1080 interlace chip.

Mike Brennan

I am so excited about this that I have posted this twice. I am usually a Sony fan working in television but I feel like sony has dropped the ball on the low to mid level HD category.

 

...It has 2/3rds inch chips and shoots 720p 1080i and all SD formats using either mpeg or the new JPEG2000 codecs(the motion picture industry will use JPEG2000 for distirbution) upto like 110mbps on IOMEGAs new REV DISKS (removable hd) or Pro Compact Flash cards . The JPEG2000 codec instead of going blocky when it can't record enough info it goes soft which I feel like is a more natural look.

Another company dumbing down true HD quality, which you ain't gonna get at 110mbs.

Your comment that Sony has dropped the ball on mid range HD needs clarification?

HDV low end,

XDCAM HD pro/educational

HDCAM broadcast

SR for High end

Isn't that enough choice from Sony?

The infinity has a 110mbs rate (lets say thats lower than HDCAM)

35GB storage is a pointer that they don't expect you to go uncompressed with it.

So where do you think it will fit?

It doesn't exist, if they can deliver all the ins and outputs that would be great, but don't expect a high end camera head in a camera that can't record 4:2:2 1920 x 1080. 2/3 inch chips and blocks are far more expensive than 1/2 inch chips. Sure they can do it but it would the price well beyond XDCAM HD with 1/2 inch chips and cheapo HD lenses.

Low cost removable media capable of even what HDCAM can deliver 144mbs and does not exist at the moment.

Mid range HD will settle on very lackluster "HD" quality built for education and industry a much bigger market than broadcast (and identified as such by Thomson CEO).

I fear infinity will be built to satisfy the lowest common denominator of *that* market, unless they take notice of some of the postings on this list:)

By the time infinity comes out (2 years to have a reliable model my best guess based on Kinetta and Sony f900 blues) There will be a 2/3 inch XDCAM HD and a SR camcorder capable of 1920x1080 50p/60p in that time.

SR tape records approx 300GB(?) on a £50 tape (vs 35GB from the rev pro disk)

Ok a SR tape currently needs at least a £50k machine to play it. (but expect a £20k SR player once they have relieved post houses of £80k for SR 5000 decks or if their is any competition) .

Low cost removable storage with 400mbs transfer rate is the key to getting the prices of tape machines down.

Anyone see that on the horizon?

I don't see any amazing breakthroughs apart from the new M2 media that has 160mps transfer rate and is 1.2mmx 7mm x15mm with 32GB potential capacity. Designed for mobile phones.

It will enable the nimble fingered Japanese to make stuff smaller but not record higher quality....

Mass produced hard drives like the Kinetta is aiming for will be a mid ground for short form work or inhouse camera to edit workflows.

Mike Brennan

I haven't been following the camera developments for a while and I was wondering if anyone could tell me what cameras are coming out in the HD realm that are more affordable to rent or buy than the F900 or the Genesis, but are delivering good quality PROGRESSIVE images.

 

I've seen some buzz about the Panasonic P2 - is that the thing?

 

I'm familiar with the Kinetta (on the CML for it but doesn't seem likely that will be seen this year).

 

Others?

 

Thanks in advance.

My eye is on the 14bit HDC1500. At the moment it can only do 4:2:2 but 4:4:4 output is mooted.

At IBC I saw 1920x1080 60p sports pictures from it recorded onto SRW1.

Next to it was genesis playing back from SR, the Genesis which looked slightly sharper but on close inspection it was maybe that the subject popped more due to reduced depth of field.

It ain't a camcorder but 1920x1080 60p has possibilities.

Mike Brennan

Yes, my description of what the DCC is actually doing was lacking. You can't say it "has nothing much to do with the white clip point" though either. Here is a more thorough description (which cannot be had from Sony or Panasonic):

 

http://jkor.com/peter/F900paint.html

 

So atleast I knew "why" I did/didn't want to use it. And if you watch on a waveform while you switch it on/off, it is (can be) lowering the white clip point but is also doing more than that. So

I stand (somewhat) corrected.

We may be stuck on two differnet interpretations of the word "clip" so we are both right:)

They way I see it is

White clip is the ire output limit (to tape) that is defined manually.

Jeff Cree says tape will record 109 ire but reccommends 106ire as tops.

Transmission systems cope with 100ire

Sony says that ccd saturation occcurs at about 130ire, perhaps 2 stops over 100ire.

Without knee everything above whatever the white clip is set to 130 will be lost to tape.

With manual knee we can adjust the slope and knee point that compression kicks in but limit output to white clip (say) 106%

With DCC slope and knee point are dynamic but happens to white clip?

Sure the dcc may pull levels down below 106% so on a scope it looks like clipping but perhaps you are seeing 130ire saturation bought below 106%?

It doesn't mean levels above the peak are clipped, just that they are are pulled down below the output level.

The clip level is unchanged as the dcc seems to always limbo under it....

As an humourous aside, the source of your quote is from a website that contains direct copies of Sony's Jeff Cree's Santas Fe powerpoints.

For 2 years the website owner didn't even credit his source, preffering to take credit for the info screenshots and all, himself, despite protestations from Sony.

So to say the expaination of how knee works is hard to come by from Sony is under the circumstances ironical.

Mike Brennan

Hi,

 

Sorry it not! I quote "The images below show examples of the same scene shot with a Linear HD camera (Sony F950) and again with a Log capture HD camera (Thomson's Viper)"

 

Stephen

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Opps I was thinking of a different article steve wrote in a magazine.(comparing viper to film)

Yes it is a argument that log processing of the 12bitAD gives us one more stop of dynamic range compared to a f950 TV gamma(?) setup going RGB with lin recording.

What is doesn't do is set up the f950 to output a flat image that is recorded (lin)

Remember that the AD does not change its output, but selecting gamma in camera the DP can choose the areas he wants to go to tape. Log does it in the shadows without a choice.

The moitoring issues with filmstream (have been) such that most filmakers go RGB not filmstream.

There is less noise from Viper in filmstream than RGB but boy is there heaps of noise in RGB from the Viper. Was looking a 444 recording yesterday switching, Viper from RGB to filmstream and then comparing to f950.

Why trade exposure detail for shadow detail for every shot? Shooting with in camera gammas the DP has the choice....

None of the above relates to changes in the ccds response which remain the same for basically all cameras. But I have an idea that fine tuning the AD mapping is more powerfull than log/lin processing.. any experts care to comment???

Mike Brennan

Mike Brennan

Hi,

 

Yes AFAIK all DVC PRO HD is compressed the same. To get the best out of a Varicam you need to record uncompressed to an external raid.

 

Stephen

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In fact there are three flavours of DVCPRO HD compression with different sub sampling.

720p (Varicam)

and

1080 50i

and

1080 60i

More info

http://www.hd24.com/compression_numbers.htm

For all we know there will be more than one version available on the P2 cam?

Mike Brennan

Mike u haven't read all my posts in this topic I guess?

All this topic has to do with a close up and not a time lapse with the iris set for landscape.

 

Dimitrios Koukas

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Dimitrious,

I was using the time lapse as an example of how much a ccd *can* take before it is damaged.

The rest of the post I sugges that iris alone will not be enough to create a golden yellow ball, that electronic shutter will be needed. Golden yellow ball is maybe 4 stops ? difference to a bright hot sun image.

mike

Like everyone is saying. All lenses are different, but I would stick with one of the following; Fuji E Series, Zeiss DigiPrime or and Optimo HD. But if you want to use primes you should use primes. If you have a good crew, and you plan propery you should not have any problem using primes. It only takes one second to change a lens. You should use what you are most comfortable with.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sadly, the cost of rental of the above lenses is often better spent elsewhere in the production.

Prism colour fringing on wide angle effects all Sony and Thomson cameras and diminishes the excellent quality of the above lenses.

I'd add the Canon and Fuji Primes to the List.

Slightly improved contrast and slightly more control of depth of field would be the main reasons for using the above lenses in my view.

Mike Brennan

Mike Brennan

Hi,

 

Are you Mike Brennan from http://www.hd24.com

 

Steve Shaw who was involved in 'Silence Becomes You' has a very informative website.

 

Comparisons are shown LIN V LOG

 

http://www.digitalpraxis.net

 

Stephen

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, the comaprison is viper filmstream viper RGB.

Mike

DDC has nothing much to do with white clip.

It is a floating knee point, compressing highlights.

It outperforms most users trying to input manual knee settings on location.

Leave it on.

Be carefull when using it with knee saturation.

Be carefull that it doesn't clamp quickly and noticibly.

Mike Brennan

The XDCAM HD camcoder launched at IBC has a mysterious drop in resolution when switched to progressive mode.

There is also a time lag in viewfinder.

I suggest that the camera is, from a cameramans standpoint not a true progressive scanning camera.

There seems to be a redefining of what is and what isn't progressive camera by the marketing guys:(

So a interlace image can be deinterlaced in camera and they seem to be calling it a progressive camera.

Mike Brennan

There is no problem shooting at the sun at all,

If you just always pointing at it with your iris set to a diaphragm that is appropriate.

Go with the high definition camera.

If the sun could burn the ccd, then why not a highlight on a scene wouldn't do the same?

All has to do with the amount or strength of light that falls on to the ccd.

U can have an extended shot of everything, if it's normal exposed.

Dimitrios Koukas

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You won't be able to use Iris and ND to reduce the sun to a nice golden ball.

You'll need to use electronic shutter.

This will mean that there is a lot of energy hitting the ccd.

I suggest that you shoot an evening sun which will be less bright.

I regularly shoot with f11 1000mm prime lens.

A few years ago I did a timelapse with a 1/2 inch minicam and wideangle lens. It damaged the ccd.(the only damage I have ever done to a ccd. The damage was in the form of a slight pink trace across the ccd where the sun tracked across the ccd.

Why? Because the sun was focused into a very very small pinprick by the wide angle lens and the exposure was for the ambient light (the cityscape scene) and not the light source itself (the sun)

This is far different from spreading the energy across the whole ccd and dropping exposure as you do with a big closeup of the sun.

A prolonged wide shot of the sun on a wide lens is potentially more damaging that a closeup.

For total eclipes I use the appropriate filter.

A pola filter and ND in the filter wheel will get you in the ballpark.

Be aware that Sony has failed to fix strobing of highlights when using the shutter. (is most obvious at 25p and 24p) Some cameras are better than others.

Mike Brennan

Landon,

Some corrections for the benifit to the readers of your posts.

The Genesis does not use Bayer pattern!!! It has rgb rgb rgb arrangement.

Supersampling from higher res to 1920x1080 reduces jaggies so there is benifit of higher res cameras even though we can't record all of the pixels.

SRW 1 records 1920x1080 10bit 444 2:1 compression, Arri Media have 10 units.

There are no serious workflow issues with SR format (in the common frame rates, I'm sure 1080 50p will create some!)

3chip blocks are not perfect and most 2/3 inch wide angle lenses have issues with alignment resulting in colour fringing in focal lenghts below 10mm.

It is disappointing that you appear to be not learning this stuff, with time on your side, I had hopes that you might be able to tell us a (factual) thing or two in the years to come!

Mike Brennan

Hi,

 

Log output not linear in film streem, Capturing to S.two Digital Film Recorders. Big advantage!

 

Only 1 Film has been made to date!

The worlds first uncompressed 4:4:4 movie, 'Silence Becomes You'

 

Stephen

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Steve,

I understand the pros and cons of uncompressed recording using STwo.

What are the advantages of film stream and log output?

Please consider the following in your response:)

1/Consider that the 12bit AD is employed in both filmstream and RGB modes.

2/Since there is little scope for details to be retained in highlights from CCDs the suggestion that log processing (allowing more bits to be used to record shadows) creates a more filimic look is puzzling when we all seem to say the defining part of film look is the roll off of detail in the highlights.

3/ Comparing Viper log to Viper RGB is a moot point, compare it to RGB output of other cameras is fairer as I believe Viper has had little development knowledge of RGB processing and AD mapping since its introduction.

4/ There is no "data" in a ccd camera just a string of volts from the ccd, therefore the statement "raw data in filmstream mode" is unhelpfull. The volts are processed in filmstream mode.

5/ "Underexposing" 2 stops and lifting the underexposed parts in post is what many do when using the Viper, this is far different from saying the camera has 2 stops more dynamic range....

Mike Brennan

Used it last week. It works. 12bit AD helps makes nice smooth picture.

Remember it has advantage of 422 recording of 1440x1080 pixels but ccd is 1280x720.

It is low cost and portable.

We seem to demanding HD product from manufacturers at SD prices.

 

One day we will not accept anything but 1920x1080 @422 from camera head to TV

 

Mike Brennan

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Looks like the US Model is 400P the PAL model 9with 25p) is 400E.

This info from the online user manuals, otherwise websites call both models AJ HDX400.

Having a P suffix for NTSC countries and a E for pal countries is a change from P standing for PAL?

Mike Brennan

Get someone who knows the menues to help you out.

At least one day maybe two.

I suggest that you use the "user menue" page to store a few pages that you think you'll need at your finger tips whilst you shoot.

Format the card on a PC.

Use a new card with nothing else on it.

cheers

Mike Brennan

OK so where are the facts?

How can Viper squeeze 2 stops more (manufacturers claim) of dynamic range more out of a 12bit AD than any other camera...

Come on guys alot of you have been spouting off that filmstream is the bees knees....

Mike Brennan

Neal Fredericks DP of Blair Witch was killed December last year whilst shooting aerials for a low budget movie from a fixed wing.

Low budget, low flying, home made rig...

The crash was in August. Here is the NTSB preliminary report. He wasn't wearing a stap it reports he had a rope tied around him. It seems despite an initial engine failure minutes earlier he was still roped in when a subsequent engine failure occured at 150 feet.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=2...820X01262&key=1

Mike Brennan

Neal Fredericks DP of Blair Witch was killed December last year whilst shooting aerials for a low budget movie from a fixed wing.

Low budget, low flying, home made rig...

The aircraft went into the water and he could not release his straps and or was trapped by the rig.

If you want to do an orbit of a subject then the aircraft will need to be in a fast tight turn ( or you will be quite a distance from the subject and have to use a long lens )

So the speed of the rotation of the subject may be too fast.

Fixed wing are good for shooting landscapes like mountains, city scapes and air to air with other fixed wings.

There are restrictions on removing cargo doors.

If you are thinking of doing this with a commercial pilot remeber that not many fixed wing commercial pilots have little filming experience.

It takes great skill to keep a constant orbit around a subject if there is any significant wind.

Doing it with a PPL and you are courting trouble.

Remember that personal insurances will be invalid whilstworking in a non scheduled flight.

Understand the limitations, don't fly with a PPL use a pilot with significant experience other than flight training.

Mike Brennan

The Euro version does 25p 50i

So could be good camera for indies.

Mike Brennan

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Used it last week. It works. 12bit AD helps makes nice smooth picture.

Remember it has advantage of 422 recording of 1440x1080 pixels but ccd is 1280x720.

It is low cost and portable.

We seem to demanding HD product from manufacturers at SD prices.

One day we will not accept anything but 1920x1080 @422 from camera head to TV

Mike Brennan

Thanks Mike

Can I also add the 750 to this inquiry.

Mainly, how is the 750 different than the 730?

 

Is there a Sony site with specs and info?

 

Thanks all

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

750p has 25p and 50i.

2 filter wheels. more expensive than 730.

Sony website has more details.

Rates are changing. f900 is around £1800 week with one lens. Not much difference to 750.

Mike Brennan

http://www.panavision.com/product_detail.p...ode=c0,c49,c118

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ohhh... ahhhhh :)

Mike Brennan

What is Hylun?

Mike Brennan

Will be shooting a televison project in 1080i. Client will accept 730 instead of F900. I've used the 900 but not the 730. What differences can I expect besides the fact that the 730 will not do 24P?

Are the bodies similar? Same weight? Same power consumption? Same noisy cooling fans?

Thanks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

730 is smaller quiter lighter cheaper, HDSDI out built in.

Cons

Single optical filter wheel.

10bit AD.

No user gamma.

Mike Brennan