Charles House

Do not forget the other CP camera. CP-GSMO 400ft coaxial magazine, crystal motor and built like a tank.

Any thoughts on the Canon Scoopic 16?

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Couldn't the camera be for sale after they purchased and resold it? Just playing devil's advocate.

I've been on two projects where we rented from AbelCine. I'll check them out. If anyone on the forum has one they would rent out, send me a PM.

I checked em out. Definitely not gonna happen. Looking like it's time to return to my XL-2 days.

10:1 shooting ratio. Yes. Digital shooters don't sweat shooting ratios so much because tape is relatively cheap. Film folks on a budget do worry about the ratios. A common ratio is 10:1. Some actors like Marylin Monroe were notorious for going 40 takes per shot. With slates and directions that could have pushed her movies into something like a 60:1 shooting ratio. A common trick for lo/no film budgers is to rehearse the heck out of the performers to get the ratio down to something like 4:1.

 

Ask Bruce. He rents his. They're quiet, solid and priced right. Haggle with him. Click Abel Cine Tech's link on the right. They've got Penelopes. Call the big rental houses in New York. Someone's bound to have one. Announce your needs on all the boards. The cameras are out there.

I've been on two projects where we rented from AbelCine. I'll check them out. If anyone on the forum has one they would rent out, send me a PM.

Hey Charles,

 

I don't think we intended to put you off of film. It's just that there's a common assumption that S8 is automatically cheaper than 16mm or 35mm. As a comparison only, a 50' cartridge of Kodak Vision2 retails for $18.95. It commonly processes for $15.00. It has a maximum of 3600 frames. That comes out to a frame cost of $0.00943. Compared to 2-perf's frame cost of $0.00625 you're better off taking the time to learn how to thread a real film camera. That's not to say S8 has no value. It does provide a beautiful, almost impressionistic image that I find very satisfying.

 

Hello Wooda,

 

It's just like regular 35mm except it pulls only 2 perforations of film down for each exposure instead of 3 like in Super 35 or 4 like in academy and anamorphic. You get a natural wide screen image, 35mm resolution class, spherical lenses instead of anamorphic and half the film consumption. 2-perfers like myself and Bruce love that we can get short ends (200' +/-) for 5 to 10 cents a foot. 200' is almost useless in a 4-perf camera but lasts 4.5 minutes in a 2-perf camera. That's what a 400' roll runs for in a 4-perf camera.

 

The common beef with 2-perf is camera availability. Most of them are converted 4-perf cameras. Bruce has converted commie-cams. I've got a converted Mitchell. Converted Arri IIC's are pretty popular. You can rent modern Arri's and Panavisions with 2-perf works. Aaton makes the Penelope with changeable works in 2 and 3-perf.

I'm assuming that, by the 10/1 ratio spoken of previously, they meant getting 10 times the footage than the final product?

Where would I find a 2-perf camera rental? I think the rental is going to kill me more than the cost of film, considering my location (East Coast, WV).

Depending on the deals you can strike you can shoot 2-perf 35mm for not a heck of a lot more than Super 8. A common 10/10 deal will get you $0.00625 per frame. An 8/8 will get you $0.005. That's a half penny per frame shot and developed with 35mm resolution to boot.

 

So, let's say you've got a 2 hour long feature. That's 173,000 frames. On a 10/10 deal that'll cost you $1,081.25. With a 10:1 shooting ratio you've got the whole thing shot and processed for $10,812.50.

That's definitely a price tag I can't afford. Maybe film isn't for me. Thanks for the responses, I guess I'll stay digital.

Transfer your footage to tape. Do not try to cut film. The glue will ruin the project. Once on tape you can edit it in your computer and output a quality image.

Thank you for the response, I have no means to cut actual film, I don't think our school has ever done film, only digital, so I was going to have it transfered to DV or HD so I can edit the film footage with the DV and HD footage, as I'll use other cameras for the same project.

Going for Super8 doesn't seem like a bad idea to me, the emulsions nowaday are quite good and you'll get more of a 1960's 16mm film. But a little tip would be to try precisely not to go for a shaky-home-movie look (if it's not supposed to be a shaky home movie) but instead take the format as serious as 16mm or DV.

An advantage of Super8 over 16mm is that a quiet camera can be had much cheaper. Note I said quiet, not sync: If you buy an unmodified sound camera you'll be ready to shoot sync sound, those kinds of cameras are relatively silent, they work for exteriors with background noise or maybe interiors if you wrap some crappy old foam around it. And those camera's are quite precise with the frame rate, you can resort to the ol' clapperboard and sync up the sound in post. Alternatively you can get a crystal sync camera, but those are harder to come by, or you have to modify one, and it'll generally be a bit more expensive. If you want details about that you'll need the advice of someone else here on the forum.

Film stocks are very good these days, Kodak sells the Ektachrome 64t and 200T and 500T color negative. The Ektachrome is a color reversal (it's processed into a positive image) is quite saturated compared to your everyday negative film, depending on the situation that may be a drawback or an advantage. The others are high sensitivity color negatives, they have a more normal color saturation, but they're grainier. You can get other negatives from Pro8, I think that's a little more expensive, never used it myself, you can search around the forum for some opinions I guess.

Hope I could help.

Thank you for the response. To respond to what you said about using a tripod, I almost never go handheld. So many students do it and I don't know why. It's never well thought out, and even in motion shots, one or two tripod shots can do the same as a handheld shot. There are uses for handheld, but when it's used for no other reason than "I'm a student videographer, this is how it's done, right?" it just looks poor.

Thank you for the information on sync sound and film stocks. I assume I'd go looking for a sync sound camera first and, since I'm led to believe they haven't made film stock with the added strip for sound in forever, I'll run another sound recording source, maybe even a DV camera with a boom mic so they're easy to sync, next to the film camera.

I planned to shoot one segment in black and white and another in 70ish color. My only real concerns are lighting (since the lighting I have access to is more for DV cameras, so I can probably get 3 lights at 300-500 watts each on one set, and that may not be enough), and digital effects in post (I usually do practice effects, but there are a few I can't do on set, light small meteors and shooting stars, so I'd have to do post digital effects, which make me wonder how they'll look coupled with grainy, real film).

I'm not sure that 8mm will sell the distributers, but It just might be the right look for at least some of your periods:) I do think to sell the distributers that decide by format that you'll have to shoot 35mm.

Thank you for the response. Maybe I should be a little more specific on distribution I'm looking for.

I'm certainly not looking for anything theatrical unless I were to take it to local, small-time theaters and get them to screen the DVD. I'm just looking for a DVD distributor that will PAY for the product, enough for me to make back what I spent on it so I have a credit, a finished film, and am not in debt for it. I know there are plenty of distributors who will TAKE your film and sell it if they think it'll sell (genre films especially), but they don't pay anything for it. No percentage of sales, no backend, nothing. My friend is in that sort of a deal with 7 or 8 of his films. They're out there, you can find them in the video store, but he made nothing on them. He just did it to get his name out there. I'd prefer to do that while still being able to make enough back to pay for what I've made, and he's suggested that DV and HDDV movies won't do that. Mixed media maybe.

Well if you're going to shoot film the first thing you need (before camera) is a light-meter and the know how on how to use one...

16mm would be a better (though more expensive) choice and they have day-light spools for certain cameras (like the Canon Scoopic) and purchasing/renting a sync, quiet 16mm camera is pretty cheap in today's market. Chances are it'll be better maintained than a S8mm camera and you have a wider range of post houses who can handle 16/super 16mm.

Thank you for the response. 16mm was my original idea, but for this project, I certainly can't afford it. There aren't too many rental houses within a considerably distance. I'm in West Virginia. I know how to use a light meter, however. I've used them with DV cameras just because I wanted to learn the craft.

EDIT: I looked up the Scoopic on Ebay and they're pretty cheap. I assume there are other semi-professional level cameras in 16mm that can be had cheap. The upcharge in film, however, I may not be able to handle.

I was going to shoot a project, a feature length, fully digital, a mix of Canon XL-2 DV and another camera with HDDV, but I had been poking around and saw that very few distibutors buy DV or even HD DV movies anymore. Because everyone and their mom is making them for next to nothing, they won't even watch them. It's a period piece, somewhat, with a segment for five different periods, so for the more modern settings I figure DV is appropriate, but for the 60s, 70s, 80s, I think Super 8 might be the best way.

I'd need to either rent or purchase a camera. If I purchased, it would have to be fairly easy to understand, and quiet enough for sync sound so I could get sound on set. It would also have to be cheap and reliable, as I've never shot film before. Super 8 is attractive because of the cartridges, as I've never had to load and unload film before, and don't trust doing it myself, so having the cartridges that can be loaded and unloaded in daylight seems great.

Any ideas on what I should look for?