Tom Mitchell

Well, with a title like "Pull focus with this!" I expected this to be an announcement regarding the RED EPIC 617 camera.

 

Is it me being stupid or is that going to be hard focusing on anything that moves? Or trying to get enough light indoors for it?

Though your right it could be a problem, I think that it is already being solved. There are alot more tools on the market for Focus pulling where a human is still needed to make a choice where a machine can't but you can get some pritty good touch screen point and focus touch screens and laser range finders for fast cars etc (i saw some great tools at the BSC show this year). where you have extreme shallow DOF this would be useful or a necessary. Though the question becomes how shallow is too shallow?

Sorry, I meant to say "angle" instead of "aperture", as in my first post. Lapsus linguae, but thank you.

I did think it was just a typo/miss wording, but i just went in to detail more so for outer people reading that might not know.

I also forgot to add the other limiting factor in shutter angle, is that you got to move the next frame in to the gate under cover of darkness, or you get unwanted vertical blur. So it also a physical issue how how quick you can do that and not break the film (even at higher frame rates).

How ever, at this point is where i start to know less about how this works. in high speed film cameras they have a system with no shutter but a spinning prism that matches the speed that the film is continuously moving through that camera. I think that gives you a 360 shutter or close to. I'm sure other peeps can expand on that.

Is in film around 200º the maximum aperture?

 

I am very grateful for the answers, thank you.

200º is reference to shutter angle, not aperture which is something entirely different.

The shutter is essentially a spinning disk of set to one side, where a slice has be cut out of it. That slice size can be changed, but the standard is 180º so half the disk is missing. The effect when you increase the angle, is that you let more light in but also increase the time the fame is being exposed increasing the motion blur that is incurred. and you get sharp crisp images in small shutter angles like 45º.

There is a section of the shutter that has a mirror on it, to bounce incoming light to the eye peace, so you are limited to the maximal shutter angle by how you fold up the sections of the shutter but also the size of the mirror. as far as I am aware this can vary from camera to camera.

when comparing shutter fractions with angle you have to remember a fraction is a measurement of time, and and angle is a fraction of fraction.

Lets take UK and US standards of 25FPS and 30FPS at take 180º as the shutter angle. 180 basically meaning 1/2.

@25FPS 180º=1/50th thats 1/25 divided by two. and 30FPS 180º=1/60th.

And as for aperture, that is the hole the light comes through at the front to the camera, that can increase or decrease. it is measured in F stops or in film T stops though the numbers are the same.

Increasing the aperture size will let more light in and decrease the depth of field (the Z distance that will be in focus) large apertures are represented with smaller T/F stops I.E T1.3 and small apertures (lke a pin hole camera) will have large numbers T16.

(T stops measure actual light entering the camera post loss from diffraction and diffusion of the glass elements in the lens. and F stop is the amount of light that should be going through the lens and doesn't account for any loss.) T stops are used in film so we can mach lenses of different sizes and manufacture and get the same exposure.)

There you go a bit of 101 film making for you hope that shed some 'light' on the situation

It's too long but I will give you the abridged version. I got the car and made the mistake of having the engine rebuilt because it was a cool car. I had driven it across country to North Carolina. In Santa Rosa New Mexico, it broke down. There wasn't even a fuel pump for it in the entire state of NM. I was at the Motel 6 for a week. On my return trip, I raced hurricane Floyd across the state. Floyd won. In the dark of night I drove up to my door window in water. Using the clutch and the starter, I backed out 5 feet at a time and finally got on flat ground where I could bail out the water. The Saab computer is under the passenger seat and was soaked. As it oxidated, I dropped a cylinder a day until I rolled into Albuquerque. I was going to leave my car and rent a van but when I picked it up all they had was 5-ton. With the aid of a flat bet tow truck, I rolled my Saab into the back of the truck with an inch clearence and drove back to LA. I have a great picture of my car int he back of the truck somewhere. It was a miserable and costly journey.

Now you gunna have to post the picks I have to see this.

You guys should be ashamed of yourselves. Aren't you in this for the love? I've mentioned this before but I did so many free jobs, I started asking for furniture and kitchen appliances. They thought I was nuts but I reasoned that my skills should be worth a blender at the very least. I did have a producer who couldn't pay me, give me a Saab with a blown Turbo. That was an experience.

I don't think you shouldn't get paid because you do it for the love. unless you do it as a hobbies aside from your job you have for you income.

By that account supermodles who do it for the love should work for free, and bin men should be paid millions as they probably hate what they do.

I have to pay the bills and eat so I don't feel bad at all in any way for asking for money. I too worked for free to learn my trade, I don't think that was right but i did it, and it seems to be the way to go for most people.

If your a trainee plumper or mercanic you still get paid! not getting paid whilst your training in film is an exception to the rule, not the rule! And just because a job is horrible dosn't mean you get paid loads, and just because you love your job dosn't mean you should work for free. Especially when you spent hard eared cash on a degree and training and working every hour god sends to train up and make contacts.

I think the point of poking fun at this add was to point out (free or not) is, would the experience you got from working on it be of any use, would you intern be learning from anyone with any valuable experience them selves?

Good idea on the alternate method of getting paid. I used to take lighting jells cutt offs and props and consumables from freebies as form of payment (with permission of corse)

and excuse my little rant:p

Wouldn't dumping data be more of an issue with the 7D?

 

 

I'd be highly skeptical of some of the automated software that dumps it to a laptop. I'd want that data backed up immediately, in multiple spots.

 

I've heard horror stories about having diodes just popping on some of the solid state media cards too. You can *usually* get the data back, but it costs a fortune and could take weeks. In some extreme cases, they are reading off data almost by hand one bit at a time.

 

 

Solid state still really scares me. I'd almost prefer tape still (never thought I'd hear myself utter this sentence)!

Solid State is more reliable than tape. all formats have issues. but tape can disintegrate, get chewed up, condensation on the tape will cause break up, It's bulky compared to solid state, you can only reliability use it once. Solid state is the future(Sorry i meant present) and I have been recording on it for quite a while, and tape even longer before hand. you can play back strait away to see if you have it, you can back it up faster than tape. and as you said alot of the time the data can be recovered should it get corrupted, which almost never happens. I bet mirrored solid state isn't that far off.

To answer the question

The cannon is a stills camera that happens to shoot video. you can get some good results out of it. but at the end of the day it has lots of issues with recording video. It's a great camera and it defanlty has it's applications. But the 900 is by far the better camera, as far as the output quality of the footage.

but youhave to ask your slelf which is better to work with?

The cannon has some serious rolling shutter issues, It used line skipping witch means it dosnt handle the fine details in the image very well. being light you going to need a solution so that hand held doesn't feel like a pocket cam, and it shoots to a delivery codex that is very highly compressed. etc etc

all that aside if its for youtube then whats the point to shooting with a top of the range camera if you going to compress the hell out of it. if you can't aford it, if it doesn't produce the look you going for? then whats the point?

I not going to make the choice for you, your the DOP that your job, but rather I'm just giving you few things to think about.

Is there a mathematical formula to calculate maximum panning speed? My ASC manual has some charts that outline the max. degrees per second recommended for panning a 35mm, but I was wondering if there is a formula to determine the max pan speed for other formats, focal lengths, shutter angles, and frame rates?

 

Thanks,

I'm sure there may be a formula for panning speed, but the real question is dose it look good?

Dose it work with whats going on? Though it is useful to understand and take apart the elements why things look good. it is important realize that it is not a computer watching the result but a human so go by your judgment. If it feels to fast. then it's too fast. What feels too fast for one thing may not feel fast for another. for example a whip pan is very fast usefull for switching back and forth to action in a high energy scene but horrible if you shooting a landscape.

so here is you formula practice + experience + observation = Panning speed

Guys

I am from India. How to record high frame rate sequences using films? Is there any manuals with video guidance or any other tutorials?

how fast do you want to go?, 75FPS and 100FPS on film is fairly easy to find in film cameras but when you go faster you end to need a more specialist.

and is it film or digital you want to shoot on? as you ask how to record hi frame rates for film then ask for video manuals?

Digital there the vari cam, or red at 2k giving 120fps

Is it the camera you looking for? or tips on the techniques of filming at hi fps?

I understand your from india so English is not you first language but could you be more specific on what you want to know, or you find that you wont generate any responses as no one will know how to answer your question.

well thank you !!

 

How'about pixel... There one pixel that show up in red ? Is this normal too ?

Ok i didn't notice the first time I watched it but, i didn't watch at full rez or at full screen my bad.

I now see it in the right third of the screen half way down.

No that's not normal, at the worst case it could be a dead pixel, in that case refer to your warranty.

Try giving the sensor a clean, it could be just some dirt or dust, both using the camera self clean, and failing that get a sensor cleaning kit and give it a clean. make sure you read up on how to do this properly or you could damage the sensor.

I don't know if the camera has a black balance feature but run that too see if that makes a difference.

also I seen damage to sensor from lasers, though the tend to take out several pixels at a time, though i'm no suggesting this is the cause, pixels do just die sometimes but just useful to know when your in a night club etc. we lost a red sensor to a laser the damage, we knew the about it at the time but the powers at be chose to risk it. It tends to look like a dotted line across in the path the laser hit the sensor (its dotted because the laser swtiches on and off at a high frequency)

I hope that is of some help

Ya I did some test with flashing light tungsten but it's when flash are strinking... Did you shoot with flash poping in the show you filmed ? The problem look like if the refreshing time of the cmos is not fast enought .. and you see that the image is taken interlaced ?

Ok this is a rolling shutter issue the reason you get it with a flash and not a tungston bulb. Is the flash starts and finnish before a single fram of the camera is exposed. a tunston bulb will take a while too cool down and will expose for at least a fram if not more, and the rate in whitch it dims it far more gradual and less far less noticeable.

The camera downloads from the chip a line at a time from top to bottom over say 1/30th of a second or 1/24 of shooting at 24fps. the flash fires much faster, So it causes banding where part of the image is exposed from the flash, and the flash has gone out before it reaches the bottom of the chip.

Film cameras suffer form this because they have a spining shutter. And RED as well as many other digital cameras have this issue, though it by far worst in the cannon. this is a common issue and there's no real get around. remember it's a stills camera at the end of the day and thats what it's primary designed to do, so it's not going to be a master at video. it's still dam good. it's a shame they use a video codex to record to that is considered to be a delivery codex there so much information lost in the image because of that, but i digress.

Ajusting shutter speed doesn't get rid of the problem but some times it can help, though you effecting the motion sharpness of each frame and the further you go from a 180 degree (thats 1/60th at 30fps) shutter ther less 'normal' it will look.

in short your cameras not broken but there's not much you can do about it ether. The saving grace is that 99% of the average joe watching it wont even notate.....especially with that subject matter:p

Working with a production company as Editor and Cinematographer looking to buy a cine level 3D production package. We already have upcoming shoots with Red One. we are looking into doing cine/high-end HD level 3D digital. Have been looking at Red, CineAlta and Canon DSLR 5D MarkII & 7D. Any experience with these or other cameras shooting and lighting for 3D? (We mostly produce music videos, short docu's and drama's).

Yes I have been DIT on some 3D stuff on the RED and SI2K worked with a company called paradise FX they are LA based. They came over here (UK) to do a feature I sure they be interested, and more than capable meeting your needs both shooting and post solutions.

This is what I picked up whist working with them, should give you a short overview i'm sure others can go in to more details.

Shooting wise using the split beam mirror you loose a stop of light in both cameras, so night work tends to need a bit more heavy duty lighting. But the saving grace is the new MX sensor Red has just released that is capable of shoot at much faster ASA's, so if you can get your hands on them, the saving in lights might outway the cost of renting a upgraded rig.

The redone rig is big and therefore needs a fairly substantial head and dolly to support it but there are smaller light weigh solutions using the SI2K for stedi cam etc. Scarlet and epic when they finaly come out should change the big and bulky problem.

You get about 400K color temperature difference between cameras because of the mirror this tends not to be any issue but worth noting.

if your planing 'high end 3D' I don't realy see the 5D as a valid solution as you can't get frame lock as far as i'm aware on both cameras and no way to stop them from drifting. this is very bad for 3D. there great for students and people who don't have budgets to shoot there shorts on, as well as getting the shots you couldn't get with any outer camera but for 3D :( (I know there are, and I have seen mk2 rigs out there but for proper stuff i'm talking about here) Its not a matter of putting two cameras together and calling 3D theres a little more to it than that, it might be 3D but you will go uch when you watch it. you need make sure the 3D will work and not have to constantly adjust your eyes to every cut.

a question that some times get asked is dose it take longer to shoot? no in short, but you do need extra crew members, in particular a stereographer who is like a focus puller but for pulls 3D instead.

When your shooting in 3D most of the world is still views in 2D so you always got to keep that in mind and shoot it to work with 2D.

3D tends to work best on wider lenses, so 100mm is as about as extreme as you want to go.

You also tend to want to stop down on the lens more and and try to emulate the human eyes depth of field, too shallow and all you get as alot of blurry 3D. when viewing you tend to want to look around a bit more so more DOF is better, (you still need to tell a story though)

thats about all i can think of, off the top of my head right now....

I know 3D is relatively new to most people, and there are lots of opinions out there i can only go on what I have learned from what little experience working with it, though i have been interested and been studying it for a while now. I be interested what other people have to add and shall be follow this thread with much eagerness.

you might want to check out voltaic solor bags, buy a few of theses should do the trick. and when u do have power they have there own battery you can charge to say from a inverter and a car. http://www.voltaicsystems.com/bag_generator.shtml.

im really tempted to buy one for my self for my portable DIT gear

gah again ment to hit preview not post wasn't any near right. dam and blast me edit it to correct. foot truly in mouth now:-P wanted to re word some of it too still sounded harsh well that's two lessons learned.

The above message seems to imply that I think you didn't try everything first before posting and that's not the case. it was ment to say 'I was making the assumption' gah just wanted to say sorry thats all. slaps hand.

Yes! I did some playing around with this yesterday, and you're exactly right. I bought a second, internal drive, and transfered a test project over, and it worked beautifully. When I switched from Windows XP, I should have realized that F400 might be problematic with a new, higher power system and OS. I'll be getting a sata card soon, and all my drives have sata ports, so I'm confident the issue should be resolved. Thanks Adrian!

 

As for Tom Mitchell, who so kindly advised me to look elsewhere, and who reminded me that Final Cut and Avid are SOOOOOO much better...

 

Thanks for the reminder. After four years and 450 posts, I'd forgotten this forum was devoted to cinematography. And I must've been mistaken when I assumed the "editor's corner" was for posts pertaining editing!

 

And as a working professional, I can tell you you're plain wrong. At my production company, we rely upon both Final Cut and Premiere, because each application has different strengths and weaknesses, and each fulfills different needs. As professionals, we choose not to limit ourselves simply because of popular perception, but rather try to work with the widest range of tools available, to best satisfy our clients. It's the professional thing to do.

 

I don't like to be snide or sarcastic on this board, but I find this sort of advice aggravating and a waste of space. I mean, what do I do with that advice? "Gee, I'm gonna drop another six or eight grand and buy a new system and Final Cut Studio Pro!"

 

I hate when new people post questions, and their only responses are "Look it up," or "Look elsewhere." What use is that? They're asking for help, and we should give it!

 

You can see by my profile, by the number of posts I've made, that I MUST have SOME familiarity with the subject of film production and post. And at this point, I don't need to be advised that FCP is somehow better than Premiere. The fact is I've edited features on both systems, and made a decision based on that experience.

 

I was simply having some technical issues relating to how Premiere interfaces with the new Windows 7. I've now solved that issue, and so consider this post closed.

 

And if I may be so bold as to give advice to you (since you have only six posts and are clearly new) it would be that if you don't have real, educated advice for posters on this forum, young or old, student or ASC member, then don't bother and stick to lurking.

 

BR

 

PS: Thanks again Adrian for your advice!

Firstly Gahhh. after re reading my post i can see how it provoked such a response. I meant no disrespect and i apologize if any offense was implied.

I too am well versed in Avid, FCP, and Prem Pro even played with vagas uch. I to only know too well the pitfalls and frustrations of trying to solve an annoying problem.

But if i was to have a problem with avid i would first look for it on avid forums and would i do so with adobe etc. more than likely you wont even have to post as some one elce already has had the same issue. If you do end up posting your audience are much more likely to be equipped with the answer.

sure, I'm making a assumption that you didn't do this already? then theirs just a plain Google search. I hardly have to post questions my self because of this reason.

I find that only too often people find them selves posting the same questions over and over again with out trying to find the answer first. I should have just said nothing it was late when i posted it and i was perhaps venting and sorry again.

I was curious to see if anyone had any experience of using a Laser measure made for builders and surveyors for focus distances?

 

Obviously some models are as expensive as a Leica Disto, however even the very affordable ones appear to have good accuracy claims, but I was wondering if anyone had any experience with the practical issues of using these devices in a way they weren't intended?

 

Cheers, Andy

Distos are worth the investment, be sure not to point the thing near the actors eyes though, i think u find the center of the chest when upright is the same distance as the eyes.

you will probably have better help on the adobe support forum than here., for two reasons one this is a cinematography forum not a edit one. and most professional editors use Avid or FCP!

http://paradisefx.com/

they have been kicking around a long time, really great guys

A cheap and less intrusive method is to invest in a laser pen. And point that downwards. I see both grips and ACs use this method. Good for dollys and steady cam work too.

No, it's not really the loader's job to do that. I was just saying that on short term without a dedicated loader- where the 2nd also loads, they would be expected to do the same thing, at least making mental notes of millimeter, etc. But then they are really a 2nd. Don't get me started on how many times the UPM will hire people and say, "We have a 1st and a loader, no 2nd..." It's a total misunderstanding of the camera dept.

yes when I was talking about being a loader I meant 2nd. on small productions in the uk we will have a 2nd and a trainee the 2nd will also be a loader (clapper loader) the trainee will stand in to do board and notes whilst the 2nd is off reloading.

loader is often referred to the shortened 'clapper loader' and central loader as a dedicated loader.

on bigger shoots we will have a central loader and separate 2nd AC for each camera a trainee to do mag and battery runs etc.

sorry for the miss communication.

so yes it is the 2nd AC who should be taking down the notes. (who could also be the loader)

As a loader why would one care about lens distance, size, and height????

 

I agree that you should be dumping footage more than once per day depending on how much you're shooting and the length of the shoot. Usually I'll do a dump at lunch and than at the end if there is no DIT which you don't really need if you know what you're doing and the RED software is pretty self explanatory. Check sums and make copies, done.

Agreed you dont always need a DIT in the full meaning of what a DIT is (as supposed to some one transferring files or red tec) the Red is now a fairly stable camera though is still get the odd curve ball and you still need some one who can fix it, and you should have some one checking and watching the footage on set. checking for overexposure, dropped frames etc.

I also do extensive data report sheets also as a DIT I do a visual report on exposure and grading notes, dpx files etc. please read up a DIT it not someone who transfer files but is quite a highly qualified role.

the difference with film is that you can scratch a few feet its just a few feet, ok yes you can flash a mag. but if a drive goes wrong it's often all gone not just some. witch is why it is important to do regular reloads; And because you can chose when you can reload you don't have to hold the shoot up by doing it at inconvenient moments but rather between setups. I worked on some big scale productions. I know if it was a chose between me and some one who reloads twice a day, I'm the one there going to trust.

I noticed this lack of respect for digital and I think it's plain sloppy. as with film cameras you should carry spare cables card readers check the gate and look after the rushes. I don't know if this is born out of laziness or ignorance for the format. but it led to some really stupid and very avoidable mistakes.

I Realy know the redone system and I know that if treated right it a great little camera. but it can also easily all go so badly wrong. and i have a few panicked people on the phone to me because they just don't cover them selves....

long story short reload often it's not hard, if there no reason not to do it, then do it!

again with notes there's no need to go over board but if every bit of extra information you can keep just makes you better at your job. it's fine if you don't think that's right (though if your asked to do it by your boss i strongly suggest you do it). but i can tell you as much as its important that you get along with the people you work with its also the little things like that, that impress and keep you landing the jobs.

I know it says on my profile I'm a DIT (not just red tec) I'm also a 2nd AC.

looking forward to your thoughts

With red and film for drama you should take similar notes. things like focal distance lens height are good to note down as you maybe asked when you to the reverse.

as a good loader you should be making a mental note of distance and height and lens size, so when you to the reverse you know can predict that they will most likely be the same. and you have have the camera in position and with the correct lens on it before the dop even asks for it or at least have it in your hand ready to go, that's what makes you a cut above the rest!! But as far as putting on the sheets i would only do it, if requested of for a vfx shot. i might wright it down in my pocket book if i find i getting asked alot.

as far as film and RED i would proably still use film sheets as a template but on red instead of howmainy feet shot i would put the clip number, but the rest of the details should be the same. Slate, take, clip, lens, Tstop, filters etc.

Usually I would download the footage at the end of the day,

This really alarms me that you said that, you should reload after shoot about 10mins of footage about 20gb on the RED as you would with film. all the time it is on the camera that's the only place it is. if the drive is dropped or damaged you lost a whole day. You sould also back it up in a min of two places.

you should have a DIT to do this. they can also advice you on how usable any questionable footage is within minutes of shooting it.

otherwise you could be playing a very dangerous game. you might have gotten away with it until now. but the day you don't will be your last. In film you should play it safe always and never be the kinda guy who likes to gamble.

I been on several productions where we have had loads of 16GB CF cards. this forces you to reload after about 12mins of footage and gives you a lighter smaller camera.