Boris Belay

Ouch ! You're paying too much for that camera ! It's not a Reflex model (and you could get it for $150). Try to cancel your bid before the end of the auction, then wait to put your $400 into a Rex-2 or later Bolex H16 -- those are Reflex and have a very nice 10x. viewfinder.

As for converting to Super-16 by yourself, it is possible, but complicated : widening the gate, moving the turret, modifying the viewfinder... not a week-end endeavor.

And you do need a Reflex for that, so start by cancelling your bid (it's possible on eBay).

That's my opinion, at least...

You can't run 16mm. film (S-16 or not) through a 35mm projector : wrong film-advance mechanism.

What you may not realize is that most people who shoot S-16 don't need to project it... somewhat of a paradox! S-16 is something like an intermediate media toward a 35mm. blow-up or a digitized output. For one thing, hardly anybody watches any kind of 16mm. projection anymore...

More practically, two things stand in the way of using a regular 16mm. projector for S-16 : the film-gate, which is easily widened, and the film path, which could scratch the 'sound' part of your S-16 image -- and that's more of a problem. A projector with the simplest film path would be a good start for a modification, and so would removing most of the sound-reading system (useless anyways). Then, you should modify the rollers to protect the extended frame.

So, not altogether impossible, but not something to do with any old projector either.

Good brands are Bauer (P6/P7/P8), Eiki, later B&H, the very rare Italian Fumeo...

-B

Keep it clean, and get a service manual off eBay (about $25) to become familiar with its mechnics and perhaps even fix little quirks if necessary (and if you feel up to it). There are a few grease points inside the chamber, on the end of moving axles visible when the camera runs. Generally speaking H16's are rather simple cameras, the EL being somewhat more complicated, because ot its circuitry. But the best is of course to choose a nice running camera in the first place.

If you need advice choosing one or have questions when it's in your hands, let me know.

-B

One option to avoid cutting up the film may be to scan the neg. Most flat-bed scanners that handle negs have a film feeder of some sort, often in 16mm. format. The scanner would have to be decent in terms of resolution, but the upscale consumer scanners that somebody around you may already own should be good enough.

It may seem strange to go through a digitizing process for a final paper print, but the advantages are that 1) you can work on the neg yourself (formats, resolution, corrections,...) and 2) that any lab, even 'street corner' ones, should be able to handle your digital file for a paper print.

Now, the main question is whether the quality will be optimal... but at least it's cheap to try.

-B

Of course, Bolex H16's use C-mount lenses. Except for the later Bayonet mount models (SB/SBM/EBM/EL). Bolex H16 Reflex (turret) cameras take C-mount lenses too, but they should be specified as 'RX' or 'H16 RX' lenses.

-B

Boris:

Thanks for the imput; I've got lots of useful links for Bolex on the web site you recomended. (Bolex.UK)

I still have one good battery out of three for the "EL".

Did you ever found the technical manual for the Bolex EL?

Regards!

Horacio

Hi Horatio,

No, I have not gotten the Service manuals for the EL. I'm begining to think that nobody has them, besides the authorized repair centers that are not allowed to put them out. I'm figuring it out n my own though, mostly by A/B comparisons between ELs with different problems. So if you need repair info, I may be able to help you.

Regarding the batteries, the best solution is hand-made ones : the hardest thing to find is the 4-pin Tuchel connector (same as the one for the MM magazine motor, in case that helps).

Cheers,

Boris

hmmm....the auricon is the typical movie camera you always see in a period movie!!! =)

 

why is the zoom called a dog leg?

 

btw, since i started in photography first, the maxim for first time is "buy the cheapest body you could get, and then get the most expensive lens your budget allows" is that the same for 16mm cameras as well?

It's not the zoom that is called 'dog-leg' but the lens viewfinder (on reflex models) that sticks out the side of the lens. On the earlier Berthiot models, they have a double 45 degree bend and look a bit like a dog's leg, I guess... Later, right angled versions are better (and Angénieux also have the 90 degree shape).

As for the photo maxim, i would tend to agree with it, except that moving film at 24/25 fps steadily requires a much higher level of engineering... So no, the camera body is very, very important. And yet the glass is perhaps more important ;-)

I have not tested the Pathé 16 cameras personally, but I know the line a little bit. The specifications on paper are good, and a lot were sold in France (mostly), from the 50's to the 70's. I'm sure they were good enough in quality and the latest, electrical models (also in Double-Super-8 format) were quite sophisticated. But I think the main problem you're likely to run into with these cameras is its rarity : no parts (for replacement or expansion), no tech support, no knowledgeable friends to help you out.

I'm a big fan of the Bolex range and can give you a lot of details on most of it so you can make a decision that suits your needs. You can get a good starter Reflex Bolex for $200 on eBay with a bit of patience and the right questions.

The main criteria, as always, are : your budget, and the kind of filming you'd like to do. Once you've thought that through (and considering you're making choice for maybe a year, not necessarily for life), many people on this forum will be happy to steer you in (what they belive is) the best direction.

Great to know it worked ! And that people are willing to take mechanical matters into their own hands -- that's the way I see things !

If you need other tips, don't hesitate

-Boris

One more little clarification : behind-the-lens filter holders are different on H16 Rex (0-5) turret cameras and H16 Rex Bayonet-mount cameras like yours (SB/SBM/EBM), and different yet on the EL series (and again of another type on the non-reflex models with the filter option). They all take the same gels, but the filter holders are not the same shape.

Hi Horacio,

For re-celled EL batteries, check the main Bolex resellers (re-cellers!). I know Andrew Alden at bolex.co.uk sells them, but I'm sure others do too.

The battery packs are closed by four screws hidden under a bit of black filler at the corners of the pack, I believe. If you can find new cells of the right size, voltage, and amperage for a decent price, you're just a bit of soldering away from new battery packs.

Otherwise, you can use regular 12V. packs of the shape and amperage that suit you (but they won't mount on the door of the camera like the 1,25 A. pack does ; you'd have to wear them on you with a connecting cable). It's the cheapest option, by far, if you don't mind the dangling cable. The electrical connections are pictured in the EL manual (two +, two - , quite simple!).

-B

B)-->

I agree on the quality of even old Bolex models, which after 40, 50, or even 60 years may still produce decent quality results (given ok lenses). But my vote goes to the Rex-2 as a light hand-held camera, because it already has the 10x. viewfinder. The Rex-3's flat base only adds weight, and the Rex-4's 1/1 motor shaft is not necessarily useful for everyone. But the 10x. VF is a real improvement for any shooting situation. And if you can get one of the French Declic grips that look like the later flat-bottom grips but for the round bottoms (rather than the more common Danish-made American round-bottom grip), you've got a fine, very light camera that fits in a medium sack, ready to shoot anywhere.

So, a Rex-2 with three lenses makes more sense for under $500 than a Rex-4 with a single 25. (Unless, of course, it's for a specific purpose, like animation, or the like).

You're doing it yourself ? With a repair manual, good tools, and a steady hand, it's perfectly doable.

If you get stuck, let me know.

-B

Morpheuse, Perhaps you should start a new thread of your own indeed, since it's hard to go from sub-$500 camera choice to Aaton XTR in the same discussion !

Film processing is yet another topic, so another thread. But check the archives first, as many of your questions have certainly been answered already.

Very shortly : you can definitely find a decent Bolex Reflex kit (up the the Rex-2 with improved viewfinder) for $500 on eBay. Just be patient, on the watchout and careful (ask as many questions as possible to the seller first). Look for cameras that people have shot with recently (or at least personnaly) and for those that were owned by a parent of the owner -- one-owner Bolex that worked 40 years ago and sat in a house closet (not basement) will still work fine with a simple lubing. I know all the Bolex models first-hand, so ask any questions (on that new thread).

Filmos are built like tanks (the US Army's choice!) but they're not Reflex, so less practical when shooting moving subjects. And Filmos with 120ft mags are really bulky, and basically only meant for tripod use. But they're certainly in the race to outlast Bolex durability (the race is not over yet...).

-Boris

Hi, yes, that sounds like a slipping belt on the lower spool sprocket. On all H16's, the two spool sprockets are driven by small metallic (spring-like) belts, but those are only accessible by dismantling the whole camera. The bottom belt is particularly hard to reach because it is under the spring motor mechanism, although you may be able to clean that belt without removing the motor.

There must be some kind of grease on the wheel and belt (unlikely that it just slackened, and it's obviously not altogether broken). One possible other problem (or half-solution) would be to make sure that lower sprocket turns as freely as it can (perhaps it has some extra drag that is just enough to slow the whole thing down half-way down your spool). You can try something like WD40 at the base of the spool axle (protect the rest of the inside of the camera as you spay it), and rotate it by hand to see if it helps (it cleans and lubricates : not Bolex factory specs, but does the job).

If film keeps bunching up after that, I can't really think of another way than dismatling the camera (viewfinder, then turret, then main inner plate) to reach that belt. Then again, that would mean a good occasion to check the rest of the mechanism and get another 40 years out of this baby !

-Boris

I would just like to second the vote for an eclair NPR. If you get one in good condition it should last you for a long time. you can set it up to use c-mount and PL mount lenses you can shoot sync sound is very stable image wise and is quite nice on your shoulder.

 

if however you can spend a little more money then you should look at Aaton 16mm cameras they have all of the advantages of the NPR but seem more refined (as they should being that most models are newer than any eclair you will find)

 

none of this is to say that the Bolexes are not great cameras, they are. however in the long run I do think that the french cameras will be more flexable in useage.

Trevor, if you know of a source for good-condition NPRs (not to mantion Aatons) for less than $500, et us all know... and me first ;)

Kim, the H16S can be a good camera since it's a late model, mechnically comparable to Rex-3 or Rex-4 Bolex. But it is not reflex, and is best used with the zoom lenses that have a reflex viewfinder built-in. This way, you get a reflex view of your shots (through the lens), and you have the advantage of the image remaining clear even when you close down the diaphragm on the lens (the viewfinder is before the iris). There are several good models that will get you started : the latest Som Berthiot Pan-Cinor 17-85/f:2 (the model with a 90 degree two-piece viewfinder) ; the Angénieux 17-68/f2,2 or 12-120/f:2,2 or even 9,5-95/f:2,2 are all available with reflex viewfinders too (they are the "Type A" models on this series). Prices range from $75 to $250 or so on clean versions of these lenses.

So, that's a good option if you have a non-reflex Bolex (or other C-mount camera), but you will be limited to these few zoom lenses. To my knowledge, there are no fixed focal-length lenses with reflex viewfinder attached. But those zooms are also a good way to start, and your kit will be easy to re-sell when you want more.

Another equivalent option (often cheaper) is the Bolex H16M series, which is the same camera but has a fixed one-lens mount, instead of the three-lens rotating turret. If you're only going to use a reflex zoom-lens, you won't need the turret anyway. Late H16M (M-4, in particular) are easy to find for cheap (sometimes less than $100 on eBay), because they were used as security cameras in the late 60's. Those were mounted with external electric motors, so the spring-motor is usually like-new, and they look quite good too since they were not handled except to load/unload film (in banks, stores, etc.).

Obviously, Bolex Reflex cameras are more flexible, but they're also more expensive. The early ones are often still good, but the reflex viewfinder is a bit small. The best cheap model, in my opinion, is the Rex-2, which is light and has the improved 10x. viewfinder.

For all of this H16-talk to make more sense, look at this great web-page :

http://www.city-net.com/~fodder/bolex/history/index.html

And if you have more questions, don't hesitate -- it's all quite confusing at first!

-Boris

My tip, if in a pinch, away from a spacious, equipped work area : I did the whole process inside a (Bolex) 400ft mag, winding by hand, in a closed-off hotel bathroom (with Do Not Disturb sign on !) and inside my usual changing bag. I did the two wind method (for lack of a better one) : from 400ft reel on core (no split reel, just the magazine's film guides) to 100ft daylight spool, and back-wound onto an extra spool). The film did not go out of the mag, but straight from feed axis to take-up axis (it's possible on the Bolex mag, but I'm not sure about other kinds -- obviously not on coaxial designs and independant feed/take-up chamber designs).

It takes a bit of 'space management' (storing the mag lid, the cores, daylight spools, cans, film bags and tape, etc.) but it turned out very well, and meant I didn't have to lug rewinds, split reels, and all the rest (plus camera gear and film) on a plane to Taiwan...

The main thing, whichever the technique, is to figure it all out ahead of time, rehearse, be very methodical and patient as you do it, and not to change method halfway through because it's becoming tedious (it is, no matter what).

I feel the film as it fills up, judge what makes a 'full' 100ft spool, and put whatever is left on the 4th one, which is generally shorter, in my case.

Boris -

Thank you so much for your help. One question about looking up the serial number - for the 13x viewfinder, for instance, if the serial number of the camera is past the number that the feature was offered, it was automatically given that feature? There wasn't an option to have either the 10 or 13x for that year? I just want to make sure I have a 13x viewfinder because I was surprised how dark it was when I received it. I appreciate all your time. Thanks again,

 

Stephanie

Hi Stephanie, Your viewfinder is definitely the 13x. version. It's obvious on the pictures of the auction (even if I missed it the first time I looked at it), and the serial # above 250,xxx tells you so too -- I have had a couple of these late Rex-5s, so there is no doubt.

And, no, it was not an option : after it was designed, that improved viewfinder was mounted on all the Reflex Bolex.

It really shouldn't be so dark, unless you're looking through a closed-down lens while indoors, for instance. Try with one of the Switars opened-up all the way (1.4/1.6,...) and check. Also make sure there is no gel filter on the filter-holder behind the taking lens, and look at the glass on the prism (the manual tells you how to swing the prism mirror open), on the ground-glass on top of that prism (and obviously on the lenses).

Let me know.

-Boris

PS. I looked at the eBay pictures again, and I had missed an important detail which makes this a much better deal : the camera is a late series, probably 71-75, equipped with the great 13x viewfinder that first appeared on the EBM. Previous Rex-5's had a good 10x viewfinder, but this one is even better and quite rare on this model. If the camera functions well, it alone may be worth $1000. Not that you should sell it -- you should keep it and enjoy it for a long, long time !

Hi Stephanie,

For the serial number info, look up the site I indicated in my first post.

Your camera kit looks good, and the price is fair. If the camera works well, you're ok, and if all the lenses are good, you're very ok !

This was the top of the line Bolex throughout the late 60's and remained/remains the favorite models of those who want a mechanical motor, so it's a very good camera indeed. And it does have the 1/1 axis, as well as the possibility to mount a 400ft magazine for longer takes (you'll need the magazine, a camera motor, and a magazine motor for that option, and the camera becomes quite heavy then !).

more details :

1 BOLEX H16 RX5 REFLEX CAMERA IN VERY GOOD CONDITION No 256294

--> very nice, run some basic tests with an old spool of film if you have some.

1 SWITAR 10MM F1.6 LENS (It doesn't look nice but works fine) No 1023172

--> very nice wide-angle lens (if not the latest), and yours is RefleX-compatible. Check the front element, which is quite exposed and often damaged, but may still shoot decently.

1 BOLEX ESM 12V DC SYNC MOTOR (click here to see photo)(runs at 10, 18, 24, 25, 50 fps)

-->excellent motor, runs on 12V. battery packs, can be connected to a crystal unit for ultra-precise speed.

1 P. ANGENIEUX TYPE M1 F.95 25MM LENS No 1307845

--> amazingly fast (F:0.95 !) standard lens, but is not RX-specified, so proceed with caution at wider apertures (or sell it on eBay to buy a Switar 25/1,4 RX that will match your Switar 10mm.

1 12-120 ZOOM LENS F3.3 PAN-CINOR SOM BERTHIOT This lens has some scratching on the surface

but the footage I have shot with it looks fine.

--> Good, little-known zoom lens, RX-compatible, good useable range and very compact, but low aperture as a trade off. Hope the glass is ok, as it's a good complement to fast fixed focal lenses.

1 KERN -PAILLARD YVAR F2.8 75MM ARLENS No 736371

--> OK telephoto lens, probably form an older H16 kit. Try it, it may work for you, or sell it ($50?).

1 COOKE PANCHROTAL ANASTIGMAT 2.8INCH F2.3 LENS made by Taylor, Taylor and Hobson No.464722

--> another, equivalent telephoto lens, may be better than the Kern, keep one or the other, lesser market value.

1 set of 5 filter holders plus one in the camera

--> useful, but it's becoming hard to find good gel filters.

1 BAYONET MOUNT HANDLE WITH TRIGGER

--> Actually not "bayonet-mount" but has a quick-release disc that also works on Bolex tripods. Nice handle, but will not fit with motor attached (electric handle is similar and cheap without the mounting disc that you already have).

2 PELICAN CASES

-->good quality, convenient.

So, quite good overall. Main question is the real shape of the camera, and obviously the lens of glass. But even a scratched fron element or damaged coating may not mean the lens is useless -- just that you should test it, and see its limits.

More questions?

Not exactly 8 seconds, but your motor shouldn't have blown up.

The voltage (DC) you need is written on the side of the motor in a little table : you need a particular voltage to run at given speeds (two rows : one for H8 cameras, the other for H16). It think you need at least 24 V. DC to run at 18 or 24 ips. Don't forget to put the motor lever from 'Run' to 'O' position, set your desired speed on the camera, and lock the side release (pushed all the way back, where it sticks).

The 'R7' is Angénieux's code for their 5,9/1:1,8 lens, not a revision number. The Angénieux 'Type xx' classification is a bit arcane, but all the 'R' types are 'Retrofocus', a design that was invented by Angénieux and means these wide angle lenses do not need to be focused : their depth of field is great enough that everything is sharp from x distance from the lens to infinity -- so, obviously, that depth of field is very large at all openings, and increasing still at greater f stops. I don't have the precise data on this lens though.

As for CCTV lenses, if you want to try them, watch out for how much the rear optical element sticks out from the mount -- the 4008 has a reflex mirror very close to the lens-mount. It's fine for traditional 16mm. C. mount lenses, but some CCTV lenses are deeper.

Hi, Filming in 16mm. is great, and if you make sound choices right from the beginning, you won't regret it !

But that means a lot of questions ahead of time , and first of all : what is your budget ? The budget for a camera is one thing -- and you could indeed start with a decent model for $250. But don't forget to check the prices of film and processing, which is very expensive indeed. You can cut down on the price of new film stocks by finding unshot reels that are still very good but re-sold by production companies that can't afford to take any risk, or their re-canned short-ends (unshot bits of longer rolls). You can find these on eBay, or from labs or film-schools and they're a lot cheaper than new. As for processing costs, it's harder to cut down on those, unless you know somebody in a lab, film-school, 16mm. enthusiast group,...

With an idea of a budget for your camera, you need a second main thing, which is an idea (however vague) of the kinds of ilms you would like to make : documentary, experimental, fiction films with actors and scenario, nature films,... This is important in deciding what features you need for your camera : do you need a silent camera for 'synchronized sound' to record interviews or dialogue as you shoot the image (a lot of cameras are noisy enough that you hear them on the tape) ? Or can you imagine adding the sound/dialogue later ? Do you need a compact camera that you can have with you all the time and shoot with anywhere ? Unnoticed? Or will you always shoot from a tripod for stable, composed shots, and size/weight does not matter ? Do you need to be able to make long takes (10min.) or is 3min. enough ?

Also, generally speaking, are you familiar with photography ? Video ?

And are there films (of whatever kind) that make you think : "that's what I'd like to do "?

I can tell you a lot about Bolex cameras, which is what I'm familiar with and what a lot of people begin with (also in that $250-500 price range). But perhaps they're not at all what you need, which is why you shold begin by answering these basic questions. A lot of people here will then be happy to share their knowledge of these wonderful machines.

-Boris

Hi, If I understand your question right, the Bolex H16S model was a non-reflex 3-lens turret model sold in the mid- to late-60's in parallel with the H16 Reflex line and H16 M (single lens, no turret) lines. Basically, they are the successor to the very common standard Bolex H16 cameras sold from the 30's on, the 'classic' Bolex, and re-named H16S (Standard ?) to clarify the whole line-up. It was sold as a cheaper alternative to the Reflex, since it did not have the complex reflex turret and viewfinder set-up, but was more flexible than the one-lens M. A much better choice for filming than the classic H16's, since the 'H16S' tag implies you are getting a camera that is only 40 years old, as opposed to 50 or 60, or even 70 !

The late H16S include the improvements of the Bolex line of that period : the flat base for stability and the 1/1 motor axle for more precise electric motor drive.

(And just to be clear about this confusing point, H16S are not reflex, and therefor do not need 'RX' lenses. They take any standard 16mm. C mount lenses of any brand.)

Since the beam of light will be mostly visible (materialized) while eing diffracted through smoke or steam, the effect you are describing (if I understand it weel) could be achieved by the displacement of the smoke/steam. Maybe you can rig up something that will create this 'screen' in an expanding motion toward your character, so that the light-beam will seem to inch toward him. Obviously, though, you can't have the character in the shot before the light has reached him, since he would be illuminated all along. But that's easily taken care of by closing in on the light as it 'approaches'.

It's not so much an "in-camera effect' as 'on-the-set optics' ...