Samuel Trudelle

On 2/16/2023 at 11:33 AM, Simon Wyss said:

The sturdiest spring-drive 16-mm. film camera that I know is the French ETM-P, models A/B/C. One wind pulls through 1,280 frames. Its specialty, if I may introduce it here, is that the finder tube can be pulled out from the camera just like that. The tube contains the magnifying and the ocular elements. An optician can increase magnification by changing the glass. Through it you see the image on a fine ground glass for critical focusing, the same system as Bell & Howell Filmo 70-D ff., Paillard-Bolex H or the Victor 3/4/5 use.

The mechanism should be winterised: complete disassembly, cleaning, application of a dry powder lubricant such as Molykote or graphite, and reassembly.

Lenses need to be winterised as well. Do get yourself a geared head that can be well maintained, with fluid heads you may run into trouble.

Hi Simon,

Interesting, it's the first time I hear of the ETM-P. I guess it can be a good option if there is a technician that is familiar with it. I don't know how easy it is to come across it. I'll look into it, thanks!

On 2/16/2023 at 11:05 AM, Alexander van Abswoude said:

You could also consider something sturdy, light weight  and antique like a Siemens Kinokamera:

Has excellent image stability (look for Eva Brauns' home movies) and15mtr refilllable film cassettes, no electronics at all, but no sound...

Alexander

Hi Alexander,

I've never heard of those cassettes cameras, i wonder what is the film size equivalent, 8mm? I will look into it, could be a very simple solution.

Thanks,

On 2/16/2023 at 3:17 AM, Gregg MacPherson said:

Sam,

Did you or someone else mention the A minima. The ACL with 200' mags is very compact and quite light. No funny business with the plastic spools. Though you can run 200' metal spools.

Gregg.

Yes, it seems like the big plus of the A-minima is only the weight, but of what I hear, the loading and 200' spools are not that convenient. I'm wondering tough if I have all the 200' spools rolled and preped in advance, with say 4 magazines, it might be a good option.

On 2/16/2023 at 2:55 AM, Gregg MacPherson said:

Hey Sam. I shot a few rolls of 16mm in McMurdo Antarctica in about 1985 over the spring, summer, autumn with an ACL I. Spring could be sometimes -50degC. Summer may have sometimes been around your 0degC.

The camera tech prepped the ACL with winter lubricants, but I don't know what he actually did. I'm guessing the greased bearing surfaces (meaning any loaded contact surface that takes grease), especially the mag feed and take up spindles. He might have winterized the zoom lens also. 

Bear in mind that my environment was probably a lot colder than yours will be.... I never used on board batteries. I used the spiral stretchy battery cable and kept the batteries under my coat next to my body. I had extra batteries curtesy of the US Naval film dept at McMurdo.  Spare batteries and high Ah capacity would be a good idea. Modified battery that goes to the max allowed actual V would help, especially at higher speeds.

In the cold weather I didn't wander too far from shelter. The assembled camera, ready to use,  was often kept inside my coat to keep it warm. Sometimes the camera just would not get speed, or the zoom barrel felt like the grease had become like used chewing gum, being chiseled off the helix with a stuttering feeling.

Depending on your temperatures, you may still need careful planning so that you always have a safe environment (tent, hut etc) not far away so you can prep your gear. Perhaps ways to keep the camera warm? Heater, electric barney?

Thinking about the choice of camera. Are you mostly on sticks or hand held? You probably know already the pros and cons of the SR/Aaton/ACL cameras.  SR, really robust and compact, but a bit like a heavy brick on your shoulder. LTR/XTR, a bit of a fragile design, relatively,  and quite bulky, but good ergonomics. ACL sort of in the middle in both respects. An ACL II with the big bright Kinoptik finder and ergonomic side handle is almost as heavy as an SR.

Any of those cameras, properly serviced, can be reliable. If there's a budget and assistants to haul gear you might have a second camera body, just in case. I had a mirror in my viewfinder drop off its epoxy mount in the cold. A visiting TVNZ crew had the same thing happen on their CP camera. We both fixed it real quick, DIY with epoxy. 

I'll try to find time to respond to some of Tylers ideas about ACLs.

Have fun,

Gregg.

Hi Gregg,
Thanks a lot for jumping in. Those are good points about keeping the battery warm. If I'm going for the XTR 1 I'll look if it's possible the make a dummy battery with a cable and have the battery inside my coat. Also a good point about the lens barrel getting very thight. Might be worth it to have it lubricated for winter as well.

On 2/15/2023 at 3:01 PM, aapo lettinen said:

I think they filmed quite a lot with the xtr prod in Antarctica, for example this https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0428803/

They said in the making of that it needs to be adapted a little for very very cold temps (I think they changed the mag belt to different type and of course changed different lubrication to bearings) but should work perfect. the temps they were shooting were probably something like -40°C so around 0°C should be no issue. consult the service technician so that they can prepare the camera correctly for the freezing temperatures.

I remember hearing that spring wound Bolexes were common on polar expeditions because not needing electricity and being extremely reliable and relatively compact. Something like that as a backup could be useful, batteries tend to be a huge issue in cold temps.

The ACL is very compact and relatively lightweight, especially because you can use tiny c-mount lenses with it. The motors may not be super reliable anymore though and you would likely need a backup body if wanting to go with the Eclair. If budget is no issue then a higher end camera would be more useful like Tyler said. Eclairs are really more of an budget option for uses where the camera can't cost more than about 4k or 5k and if one can pay for example 10k or more, then Aatons and Arris are usually better.

I think you will want, if in any way possible, a camera with the movement heater or heated barney if shooting in cold for extended periods and the heated eyepiece is a must too so everything points towards either Aaton or Arri which are meant to be used in that kind of shooting situations.

A spring wound camera would be the lightest hands down because not needing to transport and charge batteries (especially charging is very difficult to do without lots of extra weight) so if there would be no sync sound at all, then I would likely use a spring wound camera (or three) as the main camera if needing to haul everything with me without help

Hi Aapo,
Thaks for the infos. I think like Tyler was suggesting going for an XTR that's well lubricated and covered with a barney shoud be the way to go. I also own a Bolex SBM (that can work both by winding up and the motor) which could be a great backup.

Thanks

On 2/15/2023 at 1:45 PM, Tyler Purcell said:

I shoot quite a bit of documentary work on 16mm and honestly, I've found having a shoulder mount camera with normal PL mount lenses and a quick change mag to be the only way to go. The weight sucks, but when you're on location and you're shooting, the value of being able to quickly change mags AND have long 11 min rolls, is very important. 

We actually carry 2 cameras with us. The Aaton XTR Prod and for places which are deeper hikes, stuff where there is no way I'd be able to bring the Aaton, we have a Beaulieu 2016 and some C mount glass. Its the lightest crystal full mirror reflex 16mm camera I've worked with and c mount lenses are inexpensive and if ya drop the entire rig or damage it, you aren't out much money. Plus I've been very impressed with the Beaulieu 2016 thus far, very good registration and good viewfinder. Not the best "A" cam but very good none the less. 

So what are the options? Umm... there really aren't many. 

An old camera like an ACL is risky to trust, even with the modern motor/electronics. They're kinda fragile and I'd be worried about on the road issues. 

The A Minima is a toy, I wouldn't even remotely consider it. You have to thread the damn thing and it doesn't use off the shelf film, so you have to prep every roll before hand in a lab, not something you can do on the road. So here you are in the wilderness and your hands are in the camera threading it and shit, no thanks. 

So either you resort to shooting 100ft daylight spools for your lightweight stuff and then you have a sync sound camera for the bulk of your work, or you're basically carrying around something that I'd consider to be too fragile due to age. An original Aaton XTR 1, which are tricky to find, are excellent lightweight cameras. They have modern electronics but without the tap and shit ya just don't need to carry around with you. Plus they have PL mount and such, plus the modern viewfinder and some will even do 65fps. 

Then you're down to lenses. I love my Canon 11-165, brilliant lens for long shots and wilderness, but it's a beast. So you may want to look at smaller zooms like the 11-110 from Zeiss, which is quite a bit smaller. Of course there are other ancillary things like lighter weight battery tech as well, which can shave a few pounds. But I'd absolutely stick to a modern system that's basic, so you aren't having to worry about shit on the road. 

 

Hi Tyler,

Thanks for the great insight - It's true that I should opt for something solid at the expense of the weight. The XTR 1 with a zoom range of ~11-110 is a great idea, a coop rental house has one for rent at a very fair price. I will look into it.
Thanks!

Hello everyone,

First post here.

I am going on an 30 days expedition in the Acrtic to shoot a documentary and I wanted to have your recommendations for a super 16mm camera to use, considering those criteria:

-Weight (!):  will be carrying everything, so every gram counts

-Convenience: mag loading, operating, etc.

-Sturdiness: It will be jostled, put in a bag in and out often

-Weather resistant: Mechanically and electronically (if any) needs to work in a ~0 degrees Celsius environment. Battery life to keep in mind too.

-Ergonomics and internal metering is a plus

-Budget has not definite limit

-80% of the shoot in non sync, everything shot outside in a windy environment so the camera doesn't have to be SUPER quiet

-Ideally a PL mount to put a long range zoom on it

So far I have been considering the Aaton A-minima and Eclair ACL II mainly for their light weight. 

**I know digital would be 1000x cheaper, convenient, safer, etc. but it is not an option for this project.

Let me know your thoughts on those cameras and if you believe there is a better system for this kind of shoot!

Thanks a lot,

Sam

Hi everyone,

I am looking to purchase an Aaton a-minima camera kit.

Let me know if you or anyone you know have one for sale.

Thanks,