Victor M Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 Hi guys. I shoot video from radio controlled helicopters, Ive been asked many times to make film instead of video for TV commercials and I think it is the time to make the step. Ive got a limit of 3kgs (6 pounds) of usable lifting power. Ive been researching that the H16 is a good candidate because of it low cost and size. Usable focal distances for this use will be 5mm to 10mm max i know there are some c-mount primes for this camera. First question: Are these lenses good enough and can the H16 perform well in giving broadcast quality images? My idea is to offer film option for tv commercials use, I know people in this area are really demanding about quality..can the Bolex and its lenses meet that quality? Second question: What model is better for this use, RX5, EBM?? I only need 100' spools but motorized, and some kind of low cost video assist to control the shot from the ground. Is the EBM with 100' film load, a prime, batteries (can make my own light pack) plus motor heavier than 3 kgs?? Third question: Since I cant still lift a 35mm camera, can I get the same quality with a good 16mm stock for TV use??? Any input will be really appreciated. Thank You Very much Victor Buenos Aires, Argentina. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member John Pytlak RIP Posted June 20, 2004 Premium Member Share Posted June 20, 2004 16mm has been used for television production for decades, and is widely used today: http://www.pbs.org/civilwar/film/remaster.html http://millimeter.com/mag/video_jazzy_transfer/ http://www.filmandvideomagazine.com/2002/1...s/ken_burns.htm http://www.icommag.com/april-2003/april-page-1b.html http://www.tvtechnology.com/features/Big-p...g_picture.shtml Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister X Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 For your reference, my Bolex RX5 weighs about six pounds, (without any lens, motor, battery, or film); so, once you add anything more, you are going to exceed your weight limitation. Para su referencia, mi Bolex RX5 pesa aproximadamente seis libras, (sin cualquier lente, motor, batería, o película); para que, una vez usted agrega algo más, usted va a exceder su limitación de peso. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victor M Posted June 21, 2004 Author Share Posted June 21, 2004 John, Thank you for the so interesting links. Im convinced that film is still the way to go. For my particular job there isnt still an HD camera that can meet my requirements of quality and lightness at the same time. Im concerned about how the Bolex will perform but not about the 16mm medium per se. It would be nice to start making the first tests using the new Vision 2 stock. Do you know if it is available today in my country Argentina? I´ll post the results as soon as I start shooting. My work will be mostly daylight. John thank you again for the time in responding me :) Fortean, What about the EBM which comes without the clock mechanism and turret? Is the body lighter than the RX5? I know that the EBM motor is old and heavy but there are some new much lighter and reliable. Do you know something about them? What about doing a simple video assist device? Your asks lead to new questions!! :D :D I have te chance to test the system with an Aaton Minima which is under 3kgs but I dont want to risk a U$S 30k camera if I can get the same results with one costing 10 times less. Thoughts about this will be also welcome!!! ps: Fortean gracias por la traduccion al español de tu mensaje. Muy amable. Saludos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Wells Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 I have te chance to test the system with an Aaton Minima which is under 3kgs but I dont want to risk a U$S 30k camera if I can get the same results with one costing 10 times less. The A-minima would certainly be the way to go (less than 30K or are you including lens(es) in that figure ? I do see your point though. Maybe an Eclair ACL with 200' mag for testing ? But I don't know the weight. As for video assist, Bolex is not the best choice here. -Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister X Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 The other Bolex cameras weigh from 2900 grams, (Bolex EL), to about 3200 grams, (Bolex SBM). I do have a basic Bolex, (H16-M model, with no motor and no controls). It weighs about 1800 grams. With a Tobin TXM-20B motor, (about 625 grams), and a 10mm Switar lens, (150 grams), the weight is about 2600 grams, (without film, video assist, or power supply). If you have another choice less than 3000 grams, I would dismiss the Bolex as too heavy. Las otras cámaras de Bolex pesan de 2900 gramos, (Bolex EL), a aproximadamente 3200 gramos, (Bolex SBM). Yo tengo un Bolex básico, (H16-M, sin el motor y ningún mando). Pesa aproximadamente 1800 gramos. Con un Tobin TXM-20B motor, (aproximadamente 625 gramos), y una 10mm lente de Switar, (150 gramos), el peso es aproximadamente 2600 gramos, (sin la película, el video ayuda, o suministro de poder). Si usted tiene otro selecto menos de 3000 gramos, yo despediría el Bolex como demasiado pesado. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victor M Posted June 21, 2004 Author Share Posted June 21, 2004 Sam, $30k including the lenses and what I should´ve to pay for customs fees and other stuff. I made a small research about the Eclair ACL but it is 4Kgs with 200' mag, without lens, batts nor video assist. It was a good try anyways i´ll have this camera in mind! I am developing a bigger helicopter but wont be ready until the end of the year. Thank you for the info Sam! Fortean, Thank you again for replying. If Bolex SBM is 3200 grams with motor plus the crank system then probably EBM is lighter, am I right? Is Bolex EL model 2900 grams with motor included? H16-M with Tobin or any other motor seems a very nice option!!!!! What I wonder is if it is possible to add the standard viewfinder to this body?? I have the idea to adapt a small ccd camera (w/infinite focus lens) to the eyepiece, im not concerned about image quality, what I need is something only for framing the shot and maybe superimpose some status of the camera, remember this is only for remote use. Thank you again for all the valuable information!! It seems that there are not many options in the 3kgs limit besides the A-Minima. GRACIAS!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Wells Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 I made a small research about the Eclair ACL but it is 4Kgs with 200' mag, without lens, batts nor video assist. When Garret Brown first developed the Skycam they had an Eclair ACL - modified somehow for weight -- I forget what the payload limit was (I recall less than 8 lbs.) (They also had a Panavised Arri 2C drilled full of holes, w/ 200' mag.) I know the used the 2C, the only camera I saw on it was a Panasonic 3 tube camera (this goes back awhile, obviously) Of course there was no A-minima at the time. A Richter EMP might be the camera for you weight wise (kind a like a GSAP camera but with 100' capacity) but I don't know how you do the video assist. Ditto if you used that new Swedish camera (A cam ?) -Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Wells Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 Typed too fast, read as Garrett. I meant I know the Pan-Arri was used within this weight limitation but I never saw it (and again, I forgot what it was but it was strict... ) -Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister X Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 The Bolex EL, (with internal motor), weighs 2900 grams. Instead of a video assist, would you consider mounting a small camera alongside the Bolex, (as was done with the old octameter)? A "DigiGR8 DV-182" camera weighs only 110 grams, (without batteries). Un Bolex EL, (con el motor interior), pesa 2900 gramos. ¿En lugar de un video ayude, usted consideraría la montura una cámara pequeña junto al Bolex, (como se hizo con el octameter viejo)? Un "DigiGR8 DV-182" cámara pesa sólo 110 gramos, (sin las baterías). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Appelt Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 There was a very light 35mm MOS camera called Feathercam 35, IIRC. It has been many years since I saw it at a Photokina exposition, but it seemed to me lighter than a Bolex. But you know what time does to memory... :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcfp Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 How many feet will a windup h16 with no motor run? I had one but can't remember. It seems like it could be enough. It also seems like the non-reflex top groundglass viewfinder would work really well for a video assist if you used an identical prime in the turret. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister X Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 The spring drive is supposed to transport from 16' 9" to 19' of film, when fully wound, (according to different authorities). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victor M Posted June 22, 2004 Author Share Posted June 22, 2004 Lot a thanks to everyone bringing me so much info!!! Sam, I have the change to get a 2c with 200' mags, color video tap and PL mount but again the problem is the heavy motor. I have discovered anyways that theres a pople in NY that make a light generic motor for all 1:1 cameras. I investigated a little bit about drilling the 2c but there is nothing to drill but replacing complete parts in order to make it lighter. The only part that can be chopped out is a hook on the right side! (50grams) Christian, Never heard about the Feathercam 35 IIRC, will see in internet id there is something. THANK YOU. Fortean, I thought the idea of having a small video camera alongside, but I think that is not a very accurate way of framing the shot, probably I can try many times and get used to it but what if I change the lens, for ex from a super wide to a normal.. There are some small PCB ccd cameras in the market I think that with some trial and correction I can make one of this work. Icfp, Days ago I had a REX5 in my hands and tested 20seconds at 25fps. The problem with my particular use is that the camera is inside a ball-like housing not very easy to get to the camera. Once is inside it is a whole procedure to get back there...another issue is , this is a flying camera..sometimes you need to re-shoot someting but there is no time to come down to the land, make the windup procedure and get back to the air. Thats why insist in a motorized camera able to run a complete load of film. According to Fortean the EL model because of its weight is a good candidate! THANK YOU ALL!! Keep posting ideas! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Wells Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 Yeah but - Bolex EL - you are still reading the video image off the Bolex' rather dim viewfinder. I suppose Panavision may well have swapped out complete parts - "drilled full of holes" is a description I read. Like I said I did not see the camera. A 3C might be lighter. I did see (but only at a trade show) a helicopter camera, this was as I recall an Arri III pretty much squashed into a tube which was essentially the airframe. It had the mag at the rear, perhaps it was an SL mag (didn't the folks who made those mags also do the Feathercam ?), they had been with or were with Continental Camera ? Well my memory may be at fault. -Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member John Pytlak RIP Posted June 22, 2004 Premium Member Share Posted June 22, 2004 Yes, the Kodak VISION2 films should be available in Argentina: http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/order/of...shtml#argentina http://www.kodak.com/lar/es/motion/paises/...Argentina.shtml http://www.kodak.com/cluster/lar/es/motion/index.shtml Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Langdell Posted June 26, 2004 Share Posted June 26, 2004 Sam,$30k including the lenses and what I should´ve to pay for customs fees and other stuff. I made a small research about the Eclair ACL but it is 4Kgs with 200' mag, without lens, batts nor video assist. It was a good try anyways i´ll have this camera in mind! I am developing a bigger helicopter but wont be ready until the end of the year. Thank you for the info Sam! Victor, A friend has an A-Minima with 5mm lens, a couple of batteries, charger and case. He's interested in selling it (with lingering regret, because he loves the look of film) since he's not using it. He's run very little film through it, (less than 3000 feet?) and may include some Fuji stock that's been frozen. If you're interested, I can find out what he wants for it. (Or if anyone else is interested.) Ted Langdell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Appelt Posted June 26, 2004 Share Posted June 26, 2004 I checked some old notes and the lightweight 35mm camera was called the FEATHERCAM CM35, there seems to have been an article about it in AMERICAN CINEMATOGRAPHER somewhere in 1982. The Feathercam is also mentioned in this text: Best Creative Service /Stunts But certainly they did not make them in large numbers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormNelson Posted July 2, 2004 Share Posted July 2, 2004 We accomplished this with a Beaulieu camera as it can handle the use of smaller batteries, weighs less than 6lbs with a 10mm and delivers images that will be saleable. This camera can be remotely turned on and off with the radio control unit. The bolex weighs too much when you add the motor. The Aaton suggestions are terrific for this purpose but really expensive if you dont have sponsorship. You could consider a GZAP rental from Alan Gordons, shoots 50' in a cassette and runs on 12 AAA batts, so your weight problem is really helped out. It is good to mount the camera mid way on the plane so you dont have to use any counter weight. The GZAP would require a servo to get it on and off. Has to been very carefully loaded to prevent jamming and must have good power to prevent flutter. Our problem turned out to be crashes so if you need parts for a Beaulieu let know, crash or not its fun to shoot this kind of footage just as long you keep her in the air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormNelson Posted July 2, 2004 Share Posted July 2, 2004 We accomplished this with a Beaulieu camera as it can handle the use of smaller batteries, weighs less than 6lbs with a 10mm and delivers images that will be saleable. This camera can be remotely turned on and off with the radio control unit. The bolex weighs too much when you add the motor. The Aaton suggestions are terrific for this purpose but really expensive if you dont have sponsorship. You could consider a GZAP rental from Alan Gordons, shoots 50' in a cassette and runs on 12 AAA batts, so your weight problem is really helped out. It is good to mount the camera mid way on the plane so you dont have to use any counter weight. The GZAP would require a servo to get it on and off. Has to been very carefully loaded to prevent jamming and must have good power to prevent flutter. Our problem turned out to be crashes so if you need parts for a Beaulieu let know, crash or not its fun to shoot this kind of footage just as long you keep her in the air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victor M Posted July 5, 2004 Author Share Posted July 5, 2004 Norm, Thank you for sharing your experience. Days ago I could find someone in my country who is selling a Bolex EL. If the body with motor is 2.9k plus say 150grams a 10mm, 150grams of film and 200grams of a battery pack I think it is still usable for my project. The Beaulieu option sounds interesting will see If i can get someone selling one of it here and check weights. Other issue is the video assist device, but I think i can manage to adapt some small ccd camera to the viewfinder. Saw some examples on the net and seems to work! What have you used as video assist on the Beaulieu..? Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orestis lambrou Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 Hi, Why dont you try A-cam? It weighs around 1.5 kg, with 100ft of film, lens and batteries. Ii also costs around 4000 euro.(apx. $5000). No video assist though. Check it out at www.ikonoskop.com. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Gross Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 I would agree that this is a good use for the A-Cam. Unless you are flying your helicopter dangerously close to your subject, the parallax issues in using a video camera mounted next to the film camera should be minimal. It is fairly easy to work out the math to make sure you have matching frame sizes when you switch lenses. Another advantage of the A-Cam is that it is Super-16, which future-proofs your investment. If the Eclair ACL is too heavy (surprising, but I guess it's possible) and the Aaton A-minima too expensive, then the Ikonoskop A-Cam may be your best bet. I've never been a huge fan of the Beaulieu. I find it a finiky little machine that can lose it's loop too easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samuelbrownfield Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 I would go with a panasonic DVX 100 over a 16mm Bolex, it's image quality is the same if not better, and I know the Leica lenses are better than most of the lenses you could get with the Bolex. The DVX will probably work better for weight as well, and you could carry a whole hour verses two and a half minutes. Good luck- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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