Felipe Perez-Burchard Posted July 26, 2004 Share Posted July 26, 2004 Has anyone heard of this realtime 2k color timing software for the G5? www.siliconcolor.com how does it perform? Are there other systems like it? I've always felt that eventually you'll get your film processed and then drum scanned at the lab at some sort of raw/uncompressed data and then you take it to a home system and do all your color correction there. Although this is still not feasable as not everyone can afford a pair of xServes, that will change with time... (of course files will get bigger as well). Anyone have any thoughts on this? Thanks for your time. -felipe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Adam Frisch FSF Posted July 27, 2004 Premium Member Share Posted July 27, 2004 Sounds interesting and useful. And expensive.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Wells Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 I've always felt that eventually you'll get your film processed and then drum scanned at the lab at some sort of raw/uncompressed data and then you take it to a home system and do all your color correction there. Although this is still not feasable as not everyone can afford a pair of xServes, that will change with time... (of course files will get bigger as well). Anyone have any thoughts on this? I think something like this may be the future of dailies, yes. In the past I wouldn't have said so. I said dailies because I think final grades, whether photochemical or digital shd. probably be done with gear & monitoring that is at a state of the art the end user (filmmaker, DP) cannot possibly afford. But I think if done right, and with some standards - this could be as good/better than anyway of assesment of what you've got on your camera original & where you might possibly go with it....... -Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Adam Frisch FSF Posted July 28, 2004 Premium Member Share Posted July 28, 2004 This is definitively the future. Problem is that most people are not colorists, so it'll look like s***. But in the hands of a colorist, this is just as good, I'm sure. In essence, that's exactly what's buried in those mega expensive Da Vinci systems - a processor and a software able to frame store. I've done easier color correction in Final Cut Pro and it works quite nicely. It does look like crap only because I'm worthless at it. But it is doable.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos M. Icaza Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 Does anybody know the pricing of this tool ? Looks rather interesting.... C.- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Most Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 Does anybody know the pricing of this tool ? Yes. approx. $220,000.00 Still think it's interesting? Just because something runs on a desktop platform doesn't mean it's intended for home use. As an example, Discreet Lustre runs on Windows XP and Avid DS Nitris runs on Windows as well. Not to mention the latest version of Discreet Smoke, which is available under Linux running on - yes, a PC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Phil Rhodes Posted July 31, 2004 Premium Member Share Posted July 31, 2004 Hi, I'm not quite sure why these things have to be so expensive. Really it's just a bolt-on EDL conformer for the "levels" filter from GIMP. I guess the performance is tricky, even on very big PC hardware, but still. A quarter of a million? Ten, twenty grand, yes, you have to employ very expensive software engineers, but I can't see what the market is at that price knowing what things like Baselight go for. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos M. Icaza Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 $220,000 is a lot. Thanks. Would be interesting to find out what market share they have and all.... It used to be only available for ONYX systems from SGI.... I can see why they ported it for OS-X. But $220k ? C.- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos M. Icaza Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 Phil, It is probably $220 because they probably sell one copy a year. ;-) (I really don' t know but.... supply vs demand ).... C.- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Most Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 $220,000 is a lot. Compared to what? Discreet Lustre? That's about the same price. DaVinci? A 2K costs over $350,000. Nucoda? About $170,000 last time I checked. Someone mentioned Baselight, whose cost I'm not completely sure of but I can assure you it's nowhere near $20,000. None of these systems sell in the hundreds, let alone thousands, of units. They require tremendous software development expertise (and hardware as well, in the case of DaVinci) and a tremendous amount of support. They must be accurate and reliable, not to mention versatile enough to be useful in a constantly changing segment of the industry. Silicon Color is a startup company that has some very smart guys working for them, and they sell a turnkey system that includes a very good control panel (the Tangent Devices panel) and all necessary monitoring, as well as storage that has been tested and proven. Someone mentioned that it was "available" for the Onyx 4, but that is not the case. They put the SGI version (they were attempting to build a 4K capable system) on the shelf before any units were delivered, and even now, I only know of a few sites that have the Macintosh product. It is a nice product, but without name recognition, it's difficult to justify placing it in a high end DI facility over, say, Lustre - which has the Discreet name, a proven track record (both as a Discreet product and as the original 5D Colossus), and more features, such as full conforming capabilities (Silicon Color's product does not have conforming tools of any sophistication) - for almost the same price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeSelinsky Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 It's all about pricing it at what the market will bear. If my competitor sells so many units at $300,000, why should I sell for $30,000? It's not like every grandma is suddenly going to have a telecine hooked up to a realtime color corrector in their basement if I cut the price so low :) - G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felipe Perez-Burchard Posted July 31, 2004 Author Share Posted July 31, 2004 Do you guys think that in the future the role of the cinematographer and the colorist will merge, or will they always be separate? -felipe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Most Posted August 1, 2004 Share Posted August 1, 2004 Do you guys think that in the future the role of the cinematographer and the colorist will merge... I certainly hope not. They are two different positions with two completely different skill sets and mind sets. With the possible exception of Robert Rodriguez, I don't know of any cameramen of skill and reputation who don't appreciate the skills of a good lab timer or electronic colorist, and I also don't know of any who think they can do the job as well or better - or would even want to try. A cameraman's skill set is conceptualizing lighting design and camera framing and movement in an artistic manner that's complimentary to the story being told, then translating that into technical terms in order to create proper exposures on either film or video, thus capturing the desired look. The colorist's skill is accurate interpretation of the images that have been recorded on either film or video, and on occasion, artistic enhancement of those images through various tools available in the color correction suite - all in collaboration with the cameraman, the director, or both. And, in the case of commercials, about 14 other producers, agency types, and hangers-on. One job is creation, from scratch, of an image. The other is enhancement of something that has already been created. Like I said, two completely different skill sets and mindsets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Paul Bruening Posted August 18, 2004 Premium Member Share Posted August 18, 2004 Hey Guys, I color timed my previous DV feature. I had to do-over the job about five times. Every time I let the job cool off and come back, I was shocked at how bad my decisions were. If you have the time to do the color job yourself, it can be done. The more you do it, the better you get. I shot the last one in B&W DV. I expect the color timing will be a bit easier. LOL. Sincerely, Paul Bruening Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Phil Rhodes Posted August 18, 2004 Premium Member Share Posted August 18, 2004 Hi, I don't think that's due to it being a DIY job; it may be due to your doing it alone and not having any feedback. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valeriu Campan Posted February 10, 2005 Share Posted February 10, 2005 Baselight pricing starts at USD 160,000 and I presume that with all bells and whistles of 8K could easily double: http://www.uemedia.net/CPC/vfxpro/printer_11019.shtml Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Phil Rhodes Posted February 11, 2005 Premium Member Share Posted February 11, 2005 Hi, That's 4K for the Baselight 8, and yes, more than double. But it does have just over eight times the horsepower. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member David Cox Posted February 11, 2005 Premium Member Share Posted February 11, 2005 Do you guys think that in the future the role of the cinematographer and the colorist will merge, or will they always be separate? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> If you take a camera, attach a telephone on one side and a cappuccino machine on the other, the DOP could also produce and run the catering? :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member David Cox Posted February 11, 2005 Premium Member Share Posted February 11, 2005 Apart from the obvious reason for high prices (research and development time vs number of units sold) there is another reason why manufacturers can support high prices. In the case of a grading suite, once you've got the thing that changes the colours, you then need a calibrated monitor to see the results ($20-$30K for HD), plus someone to keep it calibrated, your HD and SD decks, which could mean HD D5, HD CAM SR, VariCam, HDV, Digi Beta and DV, all the necessary up and dowm converters etc, a room to put all these things in with the obligatory reception and runner service and of course a decent colourist (around $200K per year for a good one). Once you take into consideration all of these things, whether you pay $50K for a toy or $200K, it doesn't make a great difference to the end cost. The problem is when the client comes in and sees the same apple mac in the middle of it all that they have at home and wonder why the suite costs so much! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Phil Rhodes Posted February 11, 2005 Premium Member Share Posted February 11, 2005 Hi, > $200K per year for a good [colourist] Now, see, that's just obscene. This really is one of those rather easy jobs for chinless wonder arty types that they've managed to blow out of all proportion to the difficulty of doing it. Yes, you need an artistic eye, but beyond that it's all a matter of opinon. Dare I say "Underworld" again. I think the price inflation here tends to happen because the UK is full of crusty old ex-BBC types whose idea of lighting is to blast it with 2Ks and light for exposure, and whose idea of postproduction colour control is "25,25,25." So amazed are they by the abilities of something like a Da Vinci 2K that they're willing to countenance these extraordinary charges. The reason for young people's appearance of arrogance on this subject is that, paradoxically more than the old guys, is that they've all used Photoshop and they've seen it all before. The abilities of a Pixi Megadef board aren't amazing; they're standard, usual, expected, and not worth £500 an hour. This stuff is just not new to people who've used After Effects - in fact, it's quite limited in comparison to After Effects. The realtime-ness of it isn't a big enough hook either. So really these prices happen because some old guys don't really understand what the state of the art actually is at the moment, and because they're in awe of something against which they lack the knowledge to make an informed comparison. Two hundred grand a year? Pfah, give me one of those jobs! Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fulgencio Martinez Posted February 12, 2005 Share Posted February 12, 2005 Will discreet´s combustion work for grading? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Phil Rhodes Posted February 12, 2005 Premium Member Share Posted February 12, 2005 Hi, Yes, after a fashion. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fulgencio Martinez Posted February 12, 2005 Share Posted February 12, 2005 Hi phil, what does "after a fashion" mean? is it a made expression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Phil Rhodes Posted February 12, 2005 Premium Member Share Posted February 12, 2005 Hi, It's a colloquialism. In this context it means something like "with a bit of work it will do almost the same thing." Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Most Posted February 12, 2005 Share Posted February 12, 2005 Now, see, that's just obscene. This really is one of those rather easy jobs for chinless wonder arty types that they've managed to blow out of all proportion to the difficulty of doing it. Yes, you need an artistic eye, but beyond that it's all a matter of opinon Phil, I really hope that this post was either the result of some momentary lapse of judgement (hopefully the result of alcohol, drugs, or sleep deprivation) or a joke. But if it isn't, I'm shocked that someone as intelligent as yourself would make such a statement. Everyone who works in the industry is a professional, and as such, deserves at least a modicum of respect. If, in your view, colorists are overpaid, talentless "chinless wonders" then who else is worthless? Post supervisors? Editors? Grips? Electricians? AC's? Sound mixers? Maybe directors and producers? Everyone has a job to do, and most of us take pride in their work. Obviously you do. Why denigrate the abilities of others? Especially here, in a public forum, where your potential collaborators can read your opinion of their talents or lack of them? If I were still a colorist (I'm not, at least not at the moment) and wound up in a session with you, after reading your post..... well, I won't go on here. Suffice it to say that if you think it's so easy and requires so little commitment or talent, try sitting down in a chair sometime in front of demanding clients (or even un-demanding clients) and attempting to do the job. You probably won't, and my guess is you probably can't, regardless of how you seem to feel about those who do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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