red camlera delivery starts, next products: 4k projector, ultracompact red and 4k displays. prime lens set.

Eirik Tyrihjel · April 16, 2007

Thanks Andrew! This is indeed very exciting!

jan von krogh · April 16, 2007

When I started out in films, you couldn´t get around a Steenbeck... just a few years later they litteraly vanished from the face of the earth... before they knew what hit them NLE systems were popping up everywhere FAST... this could be a repeat of that.

yeah, made the same experience back then when i started with moviemaking there were no real NLEs back then, and everyone had a steenbeck... same applies to the early imqge-manipulation-systems (anyone remebers "imagebox"? was my first digital PAL experience...), then came photoshop and the $300.000 boxes were obsolete.

If I were a major shareholder at Arri, Panavision or any other company basing it´s profit of 35mm aquisition/processing I would be a bit worried now (maybe even very worried).

arri isn´t stocklisted - which is good but a reason for their slow shift as well. also, a red monopoly isn´t what we all could want as well, competition is always good.

Filmmaking has been changin a lot through it´s history, the move to digital is inevitable, and probably imminent, and RED seems to be getting themselves into pole position.

digital cinema production is nothing new in itself and didn´t kill film as aquisition media. the systems were pretty expensive, needed new and expensive lenses, many visual styles (as dof and overcranking) worked different, customers needed a multi $$$.$$$ infrastructure in postproduction and the quality was at par, good enough for some of the most succesful movies ever, but it wasn´t really "better" in terms of imagequality or creativity. and this is the interesting point in red - they basicly solved all these problems at once. overcrank 120fps, use classic 35mm glass on arri pl (or nikon / canon if youre tight on budget), classic 35 dof, really low price, extremly inexpensive one-stop workflow with grading/di inside for 5-10.000 starting fee together with apple (i don´t consider FCS and a mac a replacement for calbrated monitoring etc, however we will see that being done often....), lightweight & compact (which was a HUGE problem with arri D20, panavision genesis especially for steady...). no moving parts etc. that they really did all this in one product is really amazing, i can´t think of any camera in the industry which was such a quantum leap since i entered the industry. to be really precise - i can´t think of any special conditions why i would use 35mm now instead of the red - that is if the camera really does >11 stops but the peter jackson footage indicates that it is easily at > 11 stops (especially the plane to plane shots in full sunlight are somewhat challenging).

the hostility several posters show here toward the products of red btw doesn´t surprise me at all. i have experienced this behaviour in different departments often, 1994 when we begun our change from analogue multitracktape to DAW in the audio dept , ~7 years ago when still digital cameras begun killing the film cameras etc. the arguments btw are -funny enough- always the same :)

what i find quite ironic - i never expected that a USA-newcomer would take the chance, i thought the big 2 japanese or the german flagship of camera production would be clever enough, especially sony who started it back then in 1999.

WW1 dogfight between a bi- and a triplane, rocks the camera. Dust, dirt, rocks, it's all there, and it's all very gritty.

When the lights came back up, the room was in total silence.

This is it, guys. It's the real deal.

jim jannard starring as "the RED baron"? scnr

Alexander Joyce · April 16, 2007

arris camera has less resolution.
D20

3100 x 2200 grid, used 2880 x 1620 pixel grid, out converted to 1920 x 1080 resolution, 4:3 aspect sensor.

RED

4900 x 2580 grid, used 4520 x 2540 pixelgrid, full out as RAW, S35 aspect sensor

arri d20 sensor has

6 megapixel

RED

12 megapixel

has less fps

D20

1-60fps

RED

1-120fps

D20 has only

duallink HD-SDI

RED has this as well, but it only can transmit 25% of the image, additionally there is the rawport for uncompressed out, disk, cf, flash etc for 4k redcode

D20 has only a streamlined HDCAMSR/diskrecorder workflow

RED can be edited native in 4k and can target to -any- quicktime/video for windows/cineon etc compliant application via redcine.

ARRI

7 kg

RED

4.5 KG

arri is pretty large and bulky, red is compact, not much larger than a hvx200 as reference.

ARRI D20 has only HD-SDI or RAW

RED has HD-SDI, RAW and several waveletbasing compressions

D20 is a Camerahead, not a camcorder

RED is a camcorder with integrated recording

arri rental only, quite expensive, costing $$$$ a day

red rental or buy, revolutionary price, rental will be $$$. so for some one or two week worth of shooting d20, you can easily buy a red.

D20 requires additional gear with high prices for recording (venon, hdcam sr deck etc)

RED doesn´t.

D20 can´t uses off-the-shelf media

RED can use compact flash, Expresscard etc etc.

no pun intended- i can´t find a single specification in which D20 has any advantage over the red.

Take one look at an image shot with the D20 compared to the Red and you'll see one advantage it has over the Red.

Now it's all good and well to include all these nifty functions into a digital cinema camera, but how well do those workflows work?!? Time will tell I guess. The reason the SR recorder works so well is it has relatively low pr. minute costs, you have a physical product in your hand and the workflow is so easy my late grandmother could figure it out.

For most DP's who are used to working with the ARRI range of cameras and maybe even the ENG type cameras the D20 doesn't represent any drastic change in size or weight and it also has a very familiar interface. Sure if you're used to working with a regular dv camera than the idea of a D20 might seem overwhelming. Besides once you get the mattebox, follow focus and support onto that those 2,5kg's will matter less imho.

The D20 still has a larger sensor and you do know what happens when you cram more pixels onto a chip right?

It'll be interesting to see how a small company like Red will cope with the support network one needs when selling thousands of cameras.

What about servicing, spare parts and such? Would one need to send the camera all the way to the US to have it fixed? If I'm in a remote Norwegian fjord and the damn thing breaks down will someone fly in with a new unit. Those fjords can be pretty pesky you know. Most likely a Red rental company will be a small one and what assistance do Red give to them? Excuse me if these are issues that have been discussed, but I think they are valid concerns.

A camera is after all just a camera and the concept is pretty much the same as when that guy in the Middle East discovered the camera obscura. We just upped the clarity a little since then :P We all know this and that is that what really counts are the people behind it. Not just the people on set, but all the way back to the slimy salesperson that sold it in the first place.

Andrew Ray · April 17, 2007

Personally I think that Japanese are not the player in the core cine equipment.

Zeiss/ARRI is the real winner.

Jan, Germans are loosing it again to Americans

I was sorry to see Mercedes going in too the Chrysler hands.

Well I still drive Mercedes and use Zeiss lenses.

If I would be ARRI executive I will buy RED company now.

I remember when IBM did ignore Bill Gates.

When IBM VP was asked about PCs and MS DOS, he answered:

?We are not in the appliances business?

These 6 words are still ringing in my ears.

Well, good businessman is the man that does recognize the business opportunity and ACT ON IT.

I hope ARRI will act on it.

If I'm in a remote Norwegian fjord and the damn thing breaks down will someone fly in with a new unit. Those fjords can be pretty pesky you know.

Alexander, as much as I love ARRI you can buy 10 RED camera bare bodies for the price of one D-20 and keep it as a backup on the set.

The only thing they can do now is to drop the prices and this will help for our budged, agree?

Alexander Joyce · April 17, 2007

Personally I think that Japanese are not the player in the core cine equipment.
Zeiss/ARRI is the real winner.

Jan, Germans are loosing it again to Americans

I was sorry to see Mercedes going in too the Chrysler hands.

Well I still drive Mercedes and use Zeiss lenses.

If I would be ARRI executive I will buy RED company now.

I remember when IBM did ignore Bill Gates.

When IBM VP was asked about PCs and MS DOS, he answered:

?We are not in the appliances business?

These 6 words are still ringing in my ears.

Well, good businessman is the man that does recognize the business opportunity and ACT ON IT.

I hope ARRI will act on it.

Alexander, as much as I love ARRI you can buy 10 RED camera bare bodies for the price of one D-20 and keep it as a backup on the set.

The only thing they can do now is to drop the prices and this will help for our budged, agree?

Why should ARRI "act" on it? They don't cater to the $17,500 camera market. 35mm is still superior to anything digital out there.

The D20 was a camera for the Television drama market. They are not pitching it against 35mm. It fills a gap between 16mm and 35mm for productions that have the bucks to shell out for ARRI gear in the first place. And most importantly it doesn't need to be 4K because we havn't even finished implementing HD broadcasting in most European countries yet!

jan von krogh · April 17, 2007

Take one look at an image shot with the D20 compared to the Red and you'll see one advantage it has over the Red.

i have seen both, both on sony sry 4k. the red shots were better in any aspect. where have you seen the red shots btw? have you been to the public presentation in llos angeles or the one in amsterdam?

Now it's all good and well to include all these nifty functions into a digital cinema camera, but how well do those workflows work?!? Time will tell I guess.

the workflow with redcode is pretty easy, better and more flexible than with any other digital cameras atm imho.

method 1

you take the drives / card, attach/plugit to the 8 core apple. you start editing in 4k in FCS, with direct send to the colorcorrection in "color". no further steps required. or if you are on the set, you do the same on the notebook, for performance reasons one should use the 1080p offline. peter jackson went the redcode route.

method 2

just as with D20 or viper - hdcam sr

method 3

fully uncompressed raw to diskarray. then feed into -any- format via redcine. edit. apply offline/2k edl to redcode and use full depth 12bit cineon etc for di & filmout.

method 4

uncompressed diskrecorder.

The reason the SR recorder works so well is it has relatively low pr. minute costs, you have a physical product in your hand and the workflow is so easy my late grandmother could figure it out.

i agree. actually one of the production company who is planning for their next fullfeature in december renting cameras etc at our shop will maybe go the road red to hdcam on set. however, with the red you have choices, including those who offer you 4 times the resolution of HDCAM SR.

For most DP's who are used to working with the ARRI range of cameras and maybe even the ENG type cameras the D20 doesn't represent any drastic change in size or weight and it also has a very familiar interface. Sure if you're used to working with a regular dv camera than the idea of a D20 might seem overwhelming.
Besides once you get the mattebox, follow focus and support onto that those 2,5kg's will matter less imho.

for steady, handheld / drunkencam stuff and many spacelimited shots (inside car etc) the d20 is simply to bulky.

The D20 still has a larger sensor and you do know what happens when you cram more pixels onto a chip right?

you get better resolution. red sensorsize btw is S35.

It'll be interesting to see how a small company like Red will cope with the support network one needs when selling thousands of cameras.

indeed. however, jim jannard has built international support & service networks in quite different leagues already - don´t forget hey started oakley....

What about servicing, spare parts and such? Would one need to send the camera all the way to the US to have it fixed? If I'm in a remote Norwegian fjord and the damn thing breaks down will someone fly in with a new unit. Those fjords can be pretty pesky you know. Most likely a Red rental company will be a small one and what assistance do Red give to them? Excuse me if these are issues that have been discussed, but I think they are valid concerns.

first, if you need a larger rental partner, go ludwig (just one example) - he has the maximum of 5 on order and will certainly order more.

second, we have 2 cameras to not be dependent of the early service network, which imho will not be fully implemented when we get our first cameras.

third - simple tip. rent 3 red cameras instead of one - it will still cost you less than one D20. btw, we also did this with filmcamera. this btw is also recommendable for 35mm - when, as example, we shot in the atacama desert for a carcommercial, we had two spare 435s with the team.

Alexander Joyce · April 17, 2007

Alexander, as much as I love ARRI you can buy 10 RED camera bare bodies for the price of one D-20 and keep it as a backup on the set.

The only thing they can do now is to drop the prices and this will help for our budged, agree?

I would love for ARRI to drop the price on the D20 rental. I was told by ARRI GB just last week that they wanted to make it more accessible. Now if that means in price or in actual availibility or both I'm not sure, but I think once ARRI are done "field testing" it we will see something happen here.

Don't get me wrong I love the idea of new technologies that can help us take the art of cinematography to a new level, but I'm just about as excited about an imaging chip as I am about a new lens design or a new lighting fixture.

Eirik Tyrihjel · April 17, 2007

35mm is still superior to anything digital out there.

Maybe last year... times are changing, btw, this is not a 35mm v/s digital thread.

Edited April 17, 2007 by Eirik Tyrihjel

jan von krogh · April 17, 2007

Why should ARRI "act" on it?
They don't cater to the $17,500 camera market.

red just moved their market for cinema cameras to 17.500$.

do you really expect that that wont influence the sales of arri?

try to imagine how hard it is now to sell a 416 or 235 on the NAB floor.

red is selling thousands of cameras to moviemakers now.

also, do you really think that what happened to 35mm photo is any different?

35mm is still superior to anything digital out there.

sorry, but that is whishful thinking. on 65mm i might agree.

have a look yourself at 2k and 4k 35mm/16mm scans vs. red:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1487

3hrd & 4hrd post.

furthermore:

the audience doesn´t see it that way. several of the most succesful films of all times have been done digital 1080p.

many excellent directors don´t see it that way. david fincher, james cameron, michael mann, sly stallone, robert altman, lars von trier, george lucas, jean-jaques annaud, robert rodriguez just to name a few.

The D20 was a camera for the Television drama market. They are not pitching it against 35mm. It fills a gap between 16mm and 35mm for productions that have the bucks to shell out for ARRI gear in the first place. And most importantly it doesn't need to be 4K because we havn't even finished implementing HD broadcasting in most European countries yet!

arris mistake.

panavisions genesis, sony hdcams, GV vipers have shot many of the sucessful blockbusters of the recent 7 years. and those are "only" 1080p, 25% of the resolution of the red.

btw, at engadget, there are finally some better shots of the running camera.

http://www.engadget.com/photos/red-one-han...th-tour/215343/

Edited April 17, 2007 by jan von krogh

Alexander Joyce · April 17, 2007

I can agree that what happened to 35mm photography might be happening to some parts of the industry now, but there are a few major differences and that is that most DP's don't own their own gear and don't pay for the stock or processing. Yeah I know a producer might push to save money here, but still there are alot of producers also who simply won't shoot on anything but film and there are Art Directors who won't have their clients films shot on anything but film. That's just how it is.

I can bet if you call up any major rental house they will tell you that their film equpment is just as busy as it's ever been and more post houses are investing in new scanners. Even in the tiny market here in Norway yet another post house is getting an ARRISCAN.

I'd love to continue this now, but it's almost 3 in the morning and I have to be at work in a few hours :blink:

It's interesting to see peoples take on things though. We all have different perceptions on things and I guess that's what makes this such a great industry to be in. I'm sure someone will let me have a play with their Red cam when they get theirs if I haven't hounded them all off by then :D

Carl Brighton · April 17, 2007

the audience doesn´t see it that way. several of the most succesful films of all times have been done digital 1080p.

Several? Define "Several". And I rather think that the slack handful that there are were successful IN SPITE of their picture quality rather that because of it. :D

Might it not be pertinent to ask why so many Hollywood Blockbusters AREN'T shot with digital cameras?

david fincher, james cameron, michael mann, sly stallone, robert altman, lars von trier, george lucas, jean-jaques annaud, robert rodriguez just to name a few.

No, actually you've pretty much named all of them. You left out Bryan Singer.

But you can be absolutely certain that everybody who is anybody in Hollywood and elsewhere will be anxious to see what the RED can and can't do.

Just remember that everything you say on these forums stays there forever!

iindeed. however, jim jannard has built international support & service networks in quite different leagues already - don´t forget hey started oakley....

Oh come on. You talking about sunglasses? Sunglasses are less than a dollar's worth of plastic that you can sell to the right sort of person for hundreds of dollars. If it breaks, they give you another pair. Big deal!

Are they going to give you another RED?

Amazingly, even people on Reduser.net are starting to ask questions like that. I didn'tthink they had it in them :P

Andrew Ray · April 17, 2007

I just ordered 2 RED cameras in spite that I am very skeptical about new products.

Yes, it takes time to take bugs out of the new system, it takes time to build good intuitive post software, and it takes time to build the service and support network.

But I do not bet on the RED camera here, I am betting on the person.

Jim is good businessman, has proven record. I never did loose by betting on good people, though I lost some by betting on the technologies.

So the camera is modular, kind of like personal computers are. If we have trouble with one camera we can always use the second as a backup. Modularity lends itself for easy swap of the sub components, so servicing will be very easy. In time, the service network could be build by training the rental houses technicians or could be organized through independent agents. Camera is fully electronic, no moving parts, no mechanical adjustments also no special knowledge required to swap 5 subcomponents of the camera inside. Your computer technician probably can do most of the subcomponents swapping. If you look how Dell computer organized its service in early days based on small independents you will have a good idea where it may go. Well, Michael Dell is the other good businessman, isn't he?

Edited April 17, 2007 by Andrew Ray

jan von krogh · April 17, 2007

No, actually you've pretty much named all of them. You left out Bryan Singer.

oh no, there are plenty more.... michael haneke, mel gibson on apocalypto, lee tamahori (i liked once we were warriors very much btw) on 300, tony bill on flyboys, even michael moore on bowling for columbine... and i just mention directors who went fully or almost fully digital, if you go for digital parts combined with 35 we would have to start with the wachoski brothers etc.

do a little reading by yourself, you will find so much more alone on panavision.com.

But you can be absolutely certain that everybody who is anybody in Hollywood and elsewhere will be anxious to see what the RED can and can't do.

not only in California, the delivery of the RED is awaited by 1500, or i think after nab thousands of cinematographers who bought. At this moment in time, i am rather interested in what it can´t do - and how we can implement a streamlined postproduction process. what it can do i have pretty good idea already - shoot fantastic, grainfree images at higher framerates than our existing sonys can and allows the use of our 35mm & S16mm PL-glass + finally gives a higher bitdepth which we always wanted for complex colorcorrection.

Just remember that everything you say on these forums stays there forever!

indeed - its already big fun now to read the early posts here (hoax, they can´t do it, such a sensor can´t be developped, no way that they will be able to sell the camera for that price, nobody will take delivery because the buyers are not pros etc etc).

Oh come on. You talking about sunglasses? Sunglasses are less than a dollar's worth of plastic that you can sell to the right sort of person for hundreds of dollars. If it breaks, they give you another pair. Big deal!
Are they going to give you another RED?

i can´t speak on behalf of red, but we have 2 cameras coming which is especially important in the early stages when red certainly won´t have a running european support network. but now you are mixing production and camera.

our production insurance covers 24h replacement / or takes the costs in any form up to 800.000 euro a day - quite expensive insurance if i might add that, but there any many shots we couldn´t dare if we wouldn´t have such a insurance.

however it seems red has -strong- demand, to be precise, stronger than with any photochemical or digital camera i ever knew. in germany, the networking between the owners of the <500 serial numbers is pretty good and this will be a gapfiller until red knows what they will provide as aftersales service - payed or included.

Amazingly, even people on Reduser.net are starting to ask questions like that. I didn'tthink they had it in them :P

just one example of a reduser.net account. check out the user ludmux - ludwig münchen.

http://ludwigkameraverleih.de/

he has 5 on order, starting ~100-105.

anyhow, it will be first come, first serve. right now, we are overhauling our whole pricelist and we are pondering where to position red, beginning with above or below hdcam? from our classical 0.8% a day calculation they camera would be slighty below 200euros a day then, that is with the production pack (cage, rail, support, matte), on the other hand is seems 2007 one can make big bucks with the camera as demand is by far exceeding offer. the red booth at nab gives a good idea of the amount of mails & calls we do get.

David Mullen ASC · April 17, 2007

indeed - its already big fun now to read the early posts here (hoax, they can´t do it, such a sensor can´t be developped, no way that they will be able to sell the camera for that price,

The issue for me wasn't whether they could sell the camera at that price, the question was whether they could do it and make a profit -- they could give away the cameras for free if they wanted to.

There is no evidence one way or another that the RED camera will turn a profit and pay for its own R&D. Jim may have been willing to take a loss just to see this camera developed for all we know.

Anyway, I congratulate them for a major accomplishment -- these are days for them to celebrate. But now it starts to be time to see where and how this camera fits into mainstream production work, and see how users will screw around with it.

Like I said in another post, most of the skepticism was natural and overcoming these real odds, not imagined, only serves to highlight their accomplishment.

jan von krogh · April 17, 2007

There is no evidence one way or another that the RED camera will turn a profit and pay for its own R&D. Jim may have been willing to take a loss just to see this camera developed for all we know.

we can only speculate here, but the prices of the -parts- in the camera are pretty low - i wouldn´t be surprised at all if the production cost of a body would be below 5000$. simply compare Nikons & canons topclass-SLRs... besides the sensor there is nothing highly expensive in the cameras (besides tons of knowhow & R&D). Thats the advantage of microelectronics, different from finemechanics - once designed, they can become pretty inexpensive to manufacture. and, i think that is really proven, jim jannard is one of the worlds most successful businessman, and it would be pretty surprising if he would break with this tradition. it seems his investment was pretty clever.

however, i agree that he was and is so passionate about the project RED that i also had the feeling that he would complete the camera, even if just 200,300 people would have ordered. best example - the 300mm prime as first lens which he basicly wanted most (sports & wildlife :))

Anyway, I congratulate them for a major accomplishment -- these are days for them to celebrate. But now it starts to be time to see where and how this camera fits into mainstream production work, and see how users will screw around with it.

i agree. when our first cameras arrive we will put them though a month of tough testing, evaluating and benchmarking. i have to admit that i am pretty exited, now knowing that our first RED shots are ~90 days ahead.