24P vs. 24P Advanced (+ first real shoot!)

Jason McKelvey · September 13, 2004

If one uses the 24P advanced mode, will it still edit ok if it is kept 60i? Or, do you have to do a 24P timeline if you use the advanced mode? Why do I ask? Well, it could all be in my head, but it seems to me that when I record in 24PA mode, the temoral resolution looks smoother when I play it back out of the camera to a monitor... I know, it's probably in my head.

By the way, I final got to shoot some product shots with talent for an insert to our TV program the other day using 24P, 16:9, 50mbs... all I can say is WOW, this thing is incredible. I used the VIVID preset from the Panasonic website, preset white balance, 5600K (4300K was accurate, 56k made it warmer) 1st ND position, adjusted gamma and master black a bit, 1/48th shutter, 0db gain, shot wide open with a Canon 21x7.5 HD lens with indirect sunlight coming through a large window. Absolutely beautiful. DOF was all of 1", I have to get a follow focus. I'll go as far as to say that most COMMON watchers (not professionals) would think it was good 16mm film. There... I said it.

Jason

David Mullen ASC · September 13, 2004

24PA pulldown avoids having a video frame in 60i where one field comes from one original progressive-captured frame and the second field coming from the next progressive-captured frame; to do this requires an entire FRAME to be repeated instead (every fifth one) -- this makes the cadence more noticeable. A frame repeated tends to create motion with more "judder."

So 24PA is really designed for the express purpose of removing the pulldown. Later, you can add a normal 3:2 pulldown for 60i mastering. You can leave the 24PA pulldown if you want to but it should look less smooth than normal pulldown.

John Morrison · September 13, 2004

That is different than my understanding of the 24pa mode. I was under the impression of that mode being used when one plans to post on a 24p timeline as opposed to the a 60i timeline. Did I misunderstand this as well ?

Jason McKelvey · September 13, 2004

Thanks David, I guess I had it backwards in my mind... I thought one looked better than the other.

Jason

Jan Crittenden · September 13, 2004

That is different than my understanding of the 24pa mode. I was under the impression of that mode being used when one plans to post on a 24p timeline as opposed to the a 60i timeline. Did I misunderstand this as well ?

Actually the way that 24PA works is that there is a composite frame, one field from one frame capture and one from andother frame capture. ie:

AA BB BC CC DD

This makes for a very odd look if edited in 60i, so as David said it is designed for 24P extraction and not 60i editing.

Standard 24P would be the method to shoot if you were not going to remove the 24 frames and edit in 60i.

This capture and pulldown looks like this:

AA BB BC CD DD

This is much smoother for 60i editing.

Hope this helps get you back on track,

Jan

Jon Rosenbloom · September 15, 2004

Hey Jan,

Forgive my confusion, but I'm still trying to figure out what all these numbers mean: I surmise that whatever work we do in camera, whether on film or beta or dv (digi-beta, mini, dv-cam, dvc-pro) - however it's "captured" (24p film or video, or 24p-a), it will end up being shown on someone's tv or moniter in an interlaced form (60i, or 30i), which requires the dropping or splicing here and there of inidividual frames (aka "pulldown.") Is this correct?

Also, the DVX-100a brochure mentions "true 24p editing" given a compatable non-linear editing system. Would this be the digital equal of the old practice of hacking up actual strips of film on a Steenbeck?

Last, the same brochure has a chart showing the different shooting/pulldown options of 24p, 24pA, and 30p. Looking at this chart, I have to ask why 30p isn't the obvious choice over the other two for your run-of-the-mill shoot on video, output a dvd type production? (I get that one would choose 24p if there's a hope of making a film print.)

Thanks for the info.

J-Ro.

David Mullen ASC · September 15, 2004

You can edit digitally as whole video frames (progressive-scan) or in field-based standard interlaced-scan video (50i PAL or 60i NTSC), depending on your editing software. Remember that every interlaced-scan video frame is made up of two fields.

There are some advantages in shooting and then editing in progressive-scan.

People who ask why not shoot 30P for "regular video" are forgetting that there are other standards than 60i NTSC. If you plan on only a 60i NTSC or 60i HDTV release, then the difference between 30P and 60i capture is more about whether you want the "film look" of progressive-scan capture. However, if you also plan on a 50i PAL and film release as well, then 24P (or 25P) is more universally adaptable than 30P.

Jason McKelvey · September 16, 2004

If you shoot something at 60i, it will look "real"... like looking through a window instead of a monitor. The 24P gives it a dream-like, not so real effect, having a different temporal resolution. Anytime you can make it look less like a news feature, you're headed in the right direction. 24P helps this tremedously.

Jason