Marco Leavitt Posted November 26, 2004 Share Posted November 26, 2004 I know this has been asked before, but I was hoping someone could speak to my specific criteria. I plan to buy a 16mm camera in the next year and have narrowed it down to the CP16r or the Eclair ACL. Super 16 is very important to me, and it appears to cost about the same to convert either. From my reading, I'm fairly set on the CP16r. It seems to have a reputation as being more rugged, having more versatile lens selection, and was designed from the get go to use 400 foot mags. The cameras are comparably priced, but I see far more Eclairs for sale. This surprises me, given the CP16r history in news gathering. You'd think there'd be tons of them out there. My only dilemma here is whether or not I'm going to be able to have access to parts and service on the CP for the long haul. I want to be able to use this camera for the next 10 years, which is about as long I figure it's going to take for HD video to become the clear choice for low budget film making meant for theatrical release. So, my question: taking into account solely the long-term viability of these two cameras, which one would you pick? Much thanks to anyone who can help me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangertree Posted November 27, 2004 Share Posted November 27, 2004 Hello, I'm not sure what you base your statement regarding a wider choices of lenses for the CP16 on. The CP16 has a CP mount, which I would think limits your choices without adapters. The Eclair ACL can easily switch between almost any mount, thanks to their ingenious TS mount ring, which allows the use of C-mount lenses, as well as factory available mounts for Eclair, Arri S, Arri B and Nikon. In addidition to this a number of people manufacture PL mounts. These mounts are as easy to change as unscrewing one and screwing on another. It doesn't get much more versitile than that, as far as lens mounts go. Also, the ACL is tiny, especially with the 200' mag, the CP has the large non-coaxial mag mounted on top which really limits where it can go (I'm really thinking in-car shots here). The ACL has much more in common with todays Arris and Aatons, and is cheaper to convert to S16. The ACL also has an available motor that runs from 8fps to 75fps, much slower and faster than a CP16r. I'm sure the CP-16R is a fine camera, but I would not say it is as versitile as an Eclair ACL. The good news is that you can probably pick up a nice CP for less than a nice ACL. I had the same thoughts, and went with the ACL, no regrets. Cheers, Walt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangertree Posted November 27, 2004 Share Posted November 27, 2004 Sorry, one more thing, about the 400' mags. The only issue with Eclairs and 400' mags is with the oldest motor, the 24fps only. Most decent packages have the heavy duty motor, which certainly has no probs with 400' mags. Get one with this motor and you're set. It's really not a big deal. Also, have you thought about an NPR? Also a fine camera, in many ways better than the ACL, and they seem to be going for dirt cheap on Ebay right now. Very easy S16 conversion, and an adjustible shutter(!). I owned one once, it was very very quiet, and dead reliable. The one I had had the Kinoptik viewfinder, if you buy an NPR, get the Angenieux viewfinder, which is truely orientable, unlike the Kioptik which rotates the image as you rotate the viewfinder (useable, but a bit annoying). Cheers, Walt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Josh Hill Posted November 29, 2004 Premium Member Share Posted November 29, 2004 I think for the long haul you will probably have a better chance with the CP. Its a Mitchell movement, and as far as I'm aware there are plenty of parts out there for it, as well as two great places to have it serviced (Visual Products and Whitehouse AV). Both will do a terrific job, but I will always plug Visual Products. Paul Hillman is the best. CPs are still in use at many film schools across the US (I go to the University of Texas and they still use CPs as their primary sync sound camera, with an Arri SR for seniors and grad students). And since they are American made I would speculate that it is much easier to find parts for them if you are living the US. The CP mount is very similar to the Aaton mount and I have read that you can use Aaton lenses on the camera with very little modification. Also, Visual Products (and others) make CP hardfront PL mounts or CP-to-Arri B or CP-to-PL adaptors. My CP has just been serviced by Visual Products and it is near silent. Yeah, the mags might be a little bulky, but I think they are good solid cameras that will last nearly forever. Go CP. Thats my advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco Leavitt Posted November 29, 2004 Author Share Posted November 29, 2004 As was pointed out, I seem to have been in error. It's the ACL that apparently accepts a wider range of lenses. Good points all. Thanks. This is going to be a hard choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewbuchanan Posted November 29, 2004 Share Posted November 29, 2004 Both are great cameras but... I want to put in a plug for the Eclair. I have an NPR (not the same as ACL but everything applies). Better camera for shooting from the shoulder (shaped to your shoulder and weighted). Much quieter (mine is as quiet as an SR3 I used recently). Easier to convert to PL mount... very important if you plan to use the camera professionally. Adjustable shutter (I don't now if CP16s have this but I would not own a camera without it). Just for the ACL... The ACL is TINY with a 200' mag on it (allowing it to go unique places) and the HD motor offers 75fps! That's it. I've shot with both and I think you find both of the to be great cameras for the price... I find I just like the Eclair a bit better. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Josh Hill Posted November 29, 2004 Premium Member Share Posted November 29, 2004 Oh, if you do get a CP make sure its the 170 degree half-moon shutter. I don't see why everyone is saying its EASIER to get an ACL converted to PL mount. You can buy, for 495 dollars I believe, an adaptor from Visual Products. Solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Welle Posted November 29, 2004 Share Posted November 29, 2004 I don't see why everyone is saying its EASIER to get an ACL converted to PL mount. You can buy, for 495 dollars I believe, an adaptor from Visual Products. Solved. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hi, You can also get a TS to PL mount adapter from Les Bosher for around $500.00. The TS mount is very robust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Welle Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Hi, I forgot to mention that the 200' A-Minima loads fit the Eclair ACL perfectly. I own one of the HD-144 kits and it is a thing of beauty. Another great thing about it is if you want to buy the Optar Illumina lenses from Kiev Camera or off Ebay, Les Bosher sells a TS to Bayonet mount adapter for somewhere in the $400.00 range. This was the best option for me at the time, although someday when I have more money I might upgrade to PL-mount. The quick change magazines are great, but make absolutely certain you use a clothes pin with the 400' mags in the magazine latch otherwise the mags will fall off and it will cost you $$$ to get it fixed (believe me--I've went through this). The camera was really designed for 200' mags, so you have to be sure to be aware of this. Be careful when you get your camera upgraded to Super-16 that it doesn't scratch your film. This is one of the most important tests, and can be solved easily by holding it up to the light. The ACL is superior to the CP16 in that you can instantly change the magazines, so if you want to use 7218 in tungsten light and then go outside, you can snap on a mag loaded with 7245. Then when you go inside in the daylight you can swap out the mag for one loaded with 7205. Bernie O'Doherty is the best one to go to for getting it converted to Super-16, I would highly recommend him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangertree Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Hi Josh, It probably doesn't matter, but with ACL, when you change mounts, you change mounts, rather than adapters like cp-pl (or almost anything to anything). It takes about 30 seconds to change from one mount to another. I'm sure that the CP-PL works fine though, still nicer (IMHO) not to have to use intermediate steps. I don't have an Arri B mount for my ACL so I use a little Eclair - Arri adapter, not as nice as the proper mount, but it works, and cost me $50. When you use another mount on an ACL, it is not adapted, it IS that mount, like a screw off 'hardfront'. If cost is a concern, ACL mounts often sell on Ebay (Arri B, Nikon) for ~$150. And Electro Optical makes a proper ACL PL mount for arounf $200. quote=Josh Hill,Nov 29 2004, 03:52 PM] Oh, if you do get a CP make sure its the 170 degree half-moon shutter. I don't see why everyone is saying its EASIER to get an ACL converted to PL mount. You can buy, for 495 dollars I believe, an adaptor from Visual Products. Solved. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Welle Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 (edited) The PL mount to C adapter is not as robust as the TS mount to PL mount adapter manufactured by Les Bosher and by Optical Electro House. The TS mount is the larger outer ring of the lens flange and the inner ring is the C mount. Obviously the diameter and strength of the TS-mount is far greater. I wouldn't feel very confident purchasing the adapter from Visual Products, especially when you could purchase something better for the same price. quote=Josh Hill,Nov 29 2004, 03:52 PM] Oh, if you do get a CP make sure its the 170 degree half-moon shutter. I don't see why everyone is saying its EASIER to get an ACL converted to PL mount. You can buy, for 495 dollars I believe, an adaptor from Visual Products. Solved. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Edited November 30, 2004 by Mike Welle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark leuchter Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 >>I forgot to mention that the 200' A-Minima loads fit the Eclair ACL perfectly. Mike, I was told by people on the ACL discussion group that the A-Minima loads need to be removed from the plastic flanges before being loaded into the ACL mags. Is that the case, or can I put them into the ACL mag as-is without removing the film roll from the plastic "spool" geared for the A-Minima mag? Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Nathan Milford Posted November 30, 2004 Premium Member Share Posted November 30, 2004 They fit perfectly in so much that they are 200'. The A-Minima loads are wound emulsion out, and the ACL if I am not mistaken takes it's film emulsion in. You would need to rewind the film emulsion in. I'm not sure if it would be an issue but it is quite possible that focus issues might come into play due to the film's memory. If you have film wound emusion in it will naturally bow in to the gate, emulsion out will bow away from the gate against the normal tolerances we set for the camera. It may not be a problem. I'm sure people have done it dozens of times with no issue at all, but your lens and mount tolerances are set with the expectation that the film will bow a little thus giving you a few microns to play with when your setting the flange focal distance or backfocus. Wide lenses would probably exacerbate the problem, like the notorius wide end of the Angenieux 12-120mm. You would also want to remove it from the A-Minima spool and place it on a normal core. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark leuchter Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Nathan, I think the ACL also takes the film emulsion out. Every time I've used a "normal" emulsion-in roll, the flim has to "flip" as it goes into the feed chamber leading to the threading gears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Welle Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 If you go to page 21 of the Eclair ACL manual it shows a picture of the film being loaded and has Capital "E's" where the emulsion side is. This diagram shows that the camera takes up emulsion out. All you have to do is snap off the plastic flanges in a loading bag, and you have a 200' core load of film emulsion out. The best place to get it from is directly from Kodak. I have 2 200' mags and 2 400' mags. I like to shoot Fuji 64D in the 400' mags and in the 200' mags I will put Kodak 7205 and 7218. So 2/3rds of what I shoot is outdoors. The rest I use indoors in tungsten and indoors with daylight. Nathan, I think the ACL also takes the film emulsion out. Every time I've used a "normal" emulsion-in roll, the flim has to "flip" as it goes into the feed chamber leading to the threading gears. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kehrer Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 Hey, I just had a crystal sync put in an EBM, and the guy there had a really great Eclair up for sale, though i don't know the price. Super 16, and 3 mags (2 400, 1 200). Heavy duty motor, and in great shape. If you want the guys number... In addition, the mounts are usually better then adaptors. Adaptors tend to be a little looser, unless you have a really good one. Les Bosher does a great job, but still, the hard front is well worth it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco Leavitt Posted December 4, 2004 Author Share Posted December 4, 2004 "If you want the guys number... In addition, the mounts are usually better then adaptors. Adaptors tend to be a" Thanks much, but I'm not looking to buy until late next year. Gotta get a SoundDevices 302 first! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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