Arri D-20

[Landon D. Parks]

Does anyone know when the D-20 is set to come out? And if so how much will it cost, say per day?

[John Sprung]

Does anyone know when the D-20 is set to come out? And if so how much will it cost, say per day?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Last I heard, middle of next year. No prices yet. D-20 will require cabling to an offboard recorder, at least in its first version.

 

Panavision's Genesis will be there earlier, 1Q05. Again no exact numbers, but probably priced quite high.

 

I'm real interested to see side by side tests, because the D-20 uses a CMOS sensor, while Genesis is CCD. The two technologies have radically different pluses and minuses on the technical side, I'm wondering how they'll compare on the aesthetics.

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[Alvin Pingol]

I'm real interested to see side by side tests, because the D-20 uses a CMOS sensor, while Genesis is CCD.  The two technologies have radically different pluses and minuses on the technical side, I'm wondering how they'll compare on the aesthetics.

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Yes, I too would really like to see some side-by-sides for that very reason. However, would you say that the differences shouldn't be more than subtle, as image processing technology has evolved enough so as to enhance each sensor's strengths while at the same time hiding their weaknesses?

[John Sprung]

I'd expect subtle differences at most under average conditions. But there might be a net advantage for one or the other at high frame rates, low light levels, shoulder and/or toe, stuff like that. I saw early D-20 material projected digitally at HPA in February, and film out from Genesis at CineGear in June. Not exactly side by side apples to apples, but plenty good enough to say that these are two excellent systems.

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[Mark Allen]

I'm putting this out to make sure that I'm understanding it right - that these both shoot RAW which will be recorded to disk.

 

If you were to download your disk to some mass storage soltion every night - by the end of a shoot for a 90 minute feature with a 10:1 shoot ratio you would have about 15.5 TERRABYTES of uncompressed data - once you converted them to an uncompressed HD editing full rez format - you'd have something like 9 terrabytes. That would require a $26,000 storage solution if it were used online.

 

On the flip side - if you converted and layed them to tape every night or two (because you were to edit in proxy mode and then do an online later) - you could edit the thing on your powerbook - however - you would be sourcing now from d5 tape.

 

In this latter case there would be an inherent advantage it seems of using the Genesis which records to hdcam and saves a lot of steps - or are people feeling the inherent compression of HDcam plus the lack of ability to play with the depth offered by RAW format would make up for this?

 

Thanks in advance for any thoughts.

[Michael Most]

I'm putting this out to make sure that I'm understanding it right - that these both shoot RAW which will be recorded to disk.

 

That is incorrect. The Genesis records to an on-board (well, docked in much the same way as a film magazine) Sony HDCam SR recorder - in other words, it records on tape. The signal that is sent to that tape is not RAW, it is log format RGB. The D20 can record to whatever you want, and also puts out log format RGB. The only products I know of that output RAW data are the Dalsa and the Kinetta - neither of which have actual availability dates.

 

[Mark Allen]

so - to sum that up....

 

D20 = RAW or whatever you want..... availability unknown

Kinetta = RAW.... availability unknown

Dalsa = RAW... availability unknown

 

Genesis = Tape (HDcam)... limited availability next year.

 

But ALL of them have a larger sensor - the Genesis having a 3 chip.

 

John Sprung - When you saw the Genesis... did you notice anything in the footage shown that a normal HD camera would have had issues with? How about the D20?

 

thanks.

[Elhanan Matos]

But ALL of them have a larger sensor - the Genesis having a 3 chip.

 

The Genesis has a single 35mm sized sensor.

[John Sprung]

While Genesis is the only entry so far to record to an onboard tape, like all the others it also has outputs to send both raw and processed data via fiber optics to offboard devices.

 

As is typical early in the development of a technology, standards haven't yet emerged in the marketplace, so vendors are covering their bases by making every reasonable output and interface available.

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[John Sprung]

John Sprung - When you saw the Genesis... did you notice anything in the footage shown that a normal HD camera would have had issues with?  How about the D20?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes. Blown out windows and hot areas way up into the shoulder hold on the Genesis just as they would on film. Likewise shadow detail down into the toe. They had a fabric covered chair in deep shadow with a hot window in the BG, and held detail at both ends of the dynamic range. The D-20 was longer ago, I don't remember the images as completely. But they definitely had day exterior with green grass in the shade and a hot sky.

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[Mark Allen]

J.S. - did you notice or remember by chance if the tonality leaned towards the smooth tonality that most HD cameras create now? If you're not sure what I mean, just think of skin tons and how for the most part they are smoother on HD than film. Smoother to the point that it almost looks like a little too much make up was used.

 

thanks again.

[John Sprung]

J.S. - did you notice or remember by chance if the tonality leaned towards the smooth tonality that most HD cameras create now?  If you're not sure what I mean, just think of skin tons and how for the most part they are smoother on HD than film.  Smoother to the point that it almost looks like a little too much make up was used.

 

thanks again.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There were plenty of closeups of actors in the tests, and none of us could see any difference.

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[Mike Brennan]

There were plenty of closeups of actors in the tests, and none of us could see any difference.

-- J.S.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes like the first Panavision test with the f900 v film, which has stood the test of time it is compelling stuff.

 

However!

Parts of the Genesis test had gelled windows and a 12k (or 18K) HMI inside.

 

The cinematographer chose to allow the scene outside the windows to burn out a little so that their was still detail visible outside. Why?

Was the lighting tuned to get the max out of Genesis highlight or was it just the the look that he wanted.

He had gel and a big lamp.... he appears to have had control over the contrast range of the scene.

The film shot version of the same scene looked similar, but what would the difference be between film and Genesis be if you took the gel off the window?

 

My point is in the real world give me gel and a 18k and I won't have a problem with highlight detail on any video camera!

 

It was graded.

It was upressed to 4k

It looked better than HDCAM, but I have never seen HDCAM upresed to 4K either.

 

The Genesis looks great and is very promising, as is a 14bit 3 chip HD camera recording onto the same format and upresed to 4k.

 

 

 

 

Mike Brennan

[John Sprung]

The Genesis looks great and is very promising, as is a 14bit 3 chip HD camera recording onto the same format and upresed to 4k.

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Genesis is a single chip camera. In order to use existing film lenses, you have to go single chip. I'm not sure about it being 14 bit. Another post on this site says 12 bit, and all I found at Panavision's site was "10 bit log output", no mention of the internal bit depth. While the tape transport and cassettes are the same, the HDCam SR used by Genesis isn't the same as original HDCam. It's 4:4:4 RGB with much less compression. And it also has a double speed mode that records twice the data rate of conventional SR. One quirk is that the rack mount SR machines don't support the double speed mode. So you have to use one of the field recorders to transfer it in post, sorta like a consumer camcorder.

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

> Yes. Blown out windows and hot areas way up into the shoulder hold on the Genesis

> just as they would on film.

 

I hate to question Mr. Sprung, but somehow I doubt it. I don't care how much money you spend on it (or how many Panavision logos you glue to it), current CMOS or CCD sensor tech simply won't do this.

 

It's entirely possible that they're using some kind of next-gen sensor, and I doubt they'll tell us about it, but I'll see this before I believe it.

 

Phil