Mat Fleming Posted July 12, 2010 Share Posted July 12, 2010 Hello, I am a projectionist and a filmmaker and i was wondering if anyone can answer a question I've been pondering. Why do projectors have maltese cross intermittent mechanisms while cameras tend to have claws? Is it purely a question of size and weight or is there something else? I'm interested because I've always wondered, but also because I'm looking at constructing a camera for a project I'm doing, possibly out of parts of an old projector mechanism. Does anyone know of any resources out there which might help me? Cheers Mat Fleming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Costello Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 It might have been a patent issue- from wiki: The first uses of the Geneva drive in film projectors go back to 1896 to the projectors of Oskar Messter and Max Gliewe and the Teatrograph of Robert William Paul. Previous projectors, including Thomas Armat's projector, marketed by Edison as the Vitascope, had used a "beater mechanism", invented by Georges Demenÿ in 1893, to achieve intermittent film transport. I think if you research any of these names you will get closer to your answer- Maybe the design was a more reliable one, when there were so many that were not- http://www.victorian-cinema.net/ is a great place to start- it has a great bibliography- and a lot of the technical information and drawings for the early cameras is still available- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Costello Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 "An important part of the design was that the cross/sprocket (and therefore film) were locked in between movements, ensuring a steady projection of each static frame. " http://www.victorian-cinema.net/features.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Costello Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 from : Practical Cinematography and Its Applications (1913) by Frederick A. Talbot "The mechanism of the modern cinematograph camera is very simple in its character and very easy to understand. The necessary parts are very few in number. In all cameras the chief object is to effect the forward intermittent movement of the film at regular intervals and for a defined distance. For this purpose the early types of camera were fitted with what is known as the Geneva stop movement. Opinion is divided upon its merits, some authorities condemning it unequivocably, while others uphold it strenuously, contending that it gives a steadier and freer motion. There is much to be said in favour of the latter view. Mechanically the Geneva stop movement is perfect. So far as cinematography is concerned its advantages were proved most emphatically by Mr. Robert Paul, the first man to bring motion pictures into commercial application in Great Britain. He adopted this movement in his camera, and it cannot be denied that his pictures were in every way equal to those produced to-day, while his camera has never been excelled. Curiously enough, although this movement has been superseded, there is a tendency among expert workers to revive it, and many cameras specially built have been fitted with it. The movement more commonly used is that known as the "claw." It is simple, and has the advantage of bringing the film into place for an exposure with a sharp, quick jerk. But it is a movement which requires to be designed very finely in order to perform its work smoothly and evenly, and without inflicting any injury upon the film." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Dom Jaeger Posted July 14, 2010 Premium Member Share Posted July 14, 2010 I would imagine that a claw movement, with its eliptical travel designed to enter, pull down and exit the film perf at more or less the same angle, would be less damaging to the perf than a geneva movement, which would enter at one angle, swivel as it pulls down, and exit at a different angle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member John Sprung Posted July 15, 2010 Premium Member Share Posted July 15, 2010 The Geneva movement is a mechanism that drives a sprocket intermittently. It's extremely noisy compared with the various claw pulldown designs. It's used on projectors and on the old upright Moviola editing machines. Because it drives a sprocket with several teeth engaged on both sides of the film, it's relatively gentle on the film. But the Geneva pulls down rapidly, in 90 degrees or less. Cameras usually use shutters of 180 degrees or thereabouts, and they don't need to pull the film that quickly. The slower claw pulldown makes less noise. -- J.S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mat Fleming Posted July 19, 2010 Author Share Posted July 19, 2010 Hello, Thanks for all your responses and the links to interesting reads. I've been away a few days so I have only read them all just now. I love the elegance of the Geneva movement/Maltese cross but it's true they can be really noisy. thanks again Mat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Costello Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 Would camera noise be an issue in the silent days? Unless the aim was to film more naturally with less noise distractions in say slice of life or travelogue films- but I can't see that as being a concern in the early days- It would seem that the quiter mechanism would be a greater advantage during exhibition, where music and narration was common- and all this is assuming that by at least 1913 the Geneva cross was only in special built cameras- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member John Sprung Posted July 19, 2010 Premium Member Share Posted July 19, 2010 For exhibition, Geneva pulldown projectors are used in well insulated booths to control the noise. For portable in-the-room projectors, mostly 16mm, they go with a claw pulldown. As for early cameras, a simple bell crank and guide slot pulldown is a bunch easier and cheaper to make than a Geneva. Noise wouldn't be the deciding factor. -- J.S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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