VIPER

[Greg Gross]

Read in Hollywood Reporter today that unboard vtr has been developed

for Viper. It supposedly can move about now free from cables to boxes.

Same freedom of movement as Panavision Genesis. Nothing said about

camera's ability to work on close sets.

 

Greg Gross

[Michael Most]

Read in Hollywood Reporter today that unboard vtr has been developed

for Viper. It supposedly can move about now free from cables to boxes.

Same freedom of movement as Panavision Genesis. Nothing said about

camera's ability to work on close sets.

 

It's not a VTR, it's a RAM recorder. It must be emptied to other storage before being reused (it cannot be reloaded, as a film magazine or a VTR can). And at least for the moment, it is being priced at almost $58,000.

 

Read the press releases again.

[Greg Gross]

Yes, I stand corrected, thank you. Genesis uses dockable SWR-1 vtr(Sony),

50 minutes.

 

Greg Gross

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

I dun geddit.

 

Uncompressed recording is desirable. Tape is extremely cheap. Tape bandwidth is largely a function of how fast you transport it past the heads. Nobody really needs the Genesis to be able to shoot fifty minutes to a cassette - ten would be fine, I'm guessing.

 

So why not run the tape faster? Yes, I know this is a simplistic view, and there are issues of head bandwidth (so put more heads on the drum?) but you'd have thought they could have figured something out. I mean, there's talk of this DVCPRO-HD camera which records to miniDV tapes and gets fifteen minutes each. Nobody cares - the tapes cost £3.

 

I imagine in reality that the HDCAM-SR series of tape decks probably does represent them having "figured something out" as far as they can, and that conventional physics is starting to limit what you can get down the magnetic media pipe, but it's nice to see them going in that direction, at least a little.

 

Phil

[Elhanan Matos]

The genesis does record 50 minutes but only in 4:2:2, if your recording in 4:4:4 it's 25 minutes (the tape is moving twice as fast).

[Christopher Bell]

Phil,

 

Can you comment further on the DVCPRO HD camera that shoots on Mini DV cassettes. Is this Panasonic's answer to the Sony HDV camera?

 

Chris Bell

[Michael Most]

So why not run the tape faster? Yes, I know this is a simplistic view, and there are issues of head bandwidth (so put more heads on the drum?) but you'd have thought they could have figured something out. I mean, there's talk of this DVCPRO-HD camera which records to miniDV tapes and gets fifteen minutes each. Nobody cares - the tapes cost £3.

 

As Elhanan already pointed out, that's exactly how the SRW1 works. It is how it achieves 4:4:4 recording with less compression (due to an 880mbps recording rate), and also how it allows the Genesis to overcrank at up to 50 fps. Not to mention the ability to record 2 4:2:2 streams at the same time (intended for 3D rigs, but with a little imagination, usable for other purposes as well).

 

However, I wouldn't discount the advantage of a longer recording time than a "standard" 1000' film magazine (a bit over 10 minutes at 24fps). The ability to continue rolling for an extended period of time is and has been one of the oft cited advantages of electronic origination.

[Michael Most]

Phil,

 

Can you comment further on the DVCPRO HD camera that shoots on Mini DV cassettes.  Is this Panasonic's answer to the Sony HDV camera? 

 

The comment was "there's talk about" it. It currently doesn't exist, at least as far as the public knows. I could also say there's "talk about" another version that wouldn't require tape at all, but would record to solid state P2 memory cards. That doesn't exist yet either, although a prototype of such a camera was shown at NAB almost a year ago.

[John Sprung]

However, I wouldn't discount the advantage of a longer recording time than a "standard"  1000' film magazine (a bit over 10 minutes at 24fps). The ability to continue rolling for an extended period of time is and has been one of the oft cited advantages of electronic origination.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's certainly a godsend for sitcoms, where takes can run 7 or 8 minutes. Plus, popping a cassette out and another in is a lot quicker than threading film movements.

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[Brad Grimmett]

Plus, popping a cassette out and another in is a lot quicker than threading film movements.

-- J.S.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, that's true, but once you roll the 30 seconds of bars it takes longer. I know plenty of 1st's who can thread a camera in 20 seconds or so.

[Elhanan Matos]

You don't have to roll bars on every tape.

[Brad Grimmett]

You don't have to roll bars on every tape.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, every movie or TV show I've ever worked on with HD or SD we've had to roll 30 seconds of bars on every single tape. Maybe you're saying that it isn't necessary, which is probably true, but they always ask us to do it. And from my experience it's very standard on any HD or SD show to do this. Whether it's necessary or not is a whole other discussion. I'm often asked to do unecessary things just to apease someone on set.

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

They're right; it isn't actually necessary to do it on digital tape systems. Bars are relevant only once you're in an analogue domain, which of course may be the production monitor's setup controls, so it's handy to have them there - but there's no longer any deviation between the way one deck records a tape and another plays it back. Generating fresh colour bars in a playback VTR will give you exactly the same result as recording some on the tape then playing them back, by definition. It's using the same DACs.

 

So it's a convenience for monitor setup, really, and it gets you out of the first minute or so of the tape which is all mangled from having been glued onto the spool.

 

Phil

[Greg Gross]

Venom Flash Pak system captures unsupressed out put of the Viper. Its

a light weight solid-state system that is compact,dockable,rugged. With

Viper and Venom Flash Pak together, modern movie-making work flows

are possible. Filmstream mode is the highest standard for digital cinema-

tography. The Venom system has a 10 minute capacity but shooting in

4:2:2 HD extends it to 18 minutes. A bluetooth inerface allows a product-

ion assistant to sit on a set and wirelessy create and edit metadata which

is recorded and permanently associated with the content. On a movie set

you could have one Venom Flash Pak on camera,one ready to replace it,

one writing to transport medium to go to post house. Price for pak starts

at $45,000.00. Supposed to be available in july 2005 for summer product-

ion schedules. I wonder if I'll ever see the independent filmmaker be able

to rent this system or the Panavision Genesis system? Its real hard for me

to say this at 57 years old,having been associated with film for at least a

good 25 years; I think I'm slowly warming up to the digital art(HD) of film-

making. I guess a long time until rental rates will be decent though and then

you have the insurance to deal with also. This is an independent filmmakers

dream if it performs as suggested. I would think you'd be able to cut produc-

tion time down and get to post quicker. At Film 7 Productions I write my own

scripts,direct,dp and my girl friend Stephanie produces and directs.

 

Greg Gross

[Keith Mottram]

This is an independent filmmakers

dream if it performs as suggested. I would think you'd be able to cut produc-

tion time down and get to post quicker.

 

                                                  Greg Gross

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

dont know about U.S but when I used the Viper we managed to get a very good day rate of £1600, if my memory serves me correctly. This was with the S2 system and included a full set of digi primes, tripod etc. the only thing that was annoying at the time apart from being tethered was the viewfinder. If the kit was with ram packs and an optical finder it would have been perfect. The camera is really nice and simple to use and the ram packs will help address the weight distribution which was off and a problem with handheld work. The post route is really simple if you convert the dpx files to quicktime proxies and reconform and as you know the luminence problems you asociate with HD are not a problem in filmstream.

 

Keith

[Michael Most]

That's certainly a godsend for sitcoms, where takes can run 7 or 8 minutes.  Plus, popping a cassette out and another in is a lot quicker than threading film movements.

 

Sitcoms really haven't had a problem for quite a while. Most film sitcoms in the last 7 or 8 years have used 2000 foot mags and shot in 3 perf format. This combination yields almost 25 minutes of running time per mag.

[Michael Most]

Price for pak starts

at $45,000.00.

 

That is incorrect. It's 45,000 Euros. That's about $58,000.

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

> the luminence problems you asociate with HD are not a problem in filmstream.

 

What luminance problems? Hilights?

 

Interesting. All the video cameras could easily have luminance ranges like that if they wanted, it's just that half the scene would be compressed out of existence. See the DVX-100 mod.

 

Phil

[Greg Gross]

Yes mmost,

Price is from Grass Valley web site,home of Viper. Go there yourself,it

simply says that Venom Flash Pak starts at $45,000.00. Are you a college

professor? usaos,euros,asiaos ; its still too much for my filmmaking budget.

Greg Gross

 

P.S.

Here's todays quizz question for you. What do you do if you walk into an

L-shaped ambush at night and you are out of ammunition? Do you know

the answer?

[Michael Most]

Yes mmost,

Price is from Grass Valley web site,home of Viper. Go there yourself,it

simply says that Venom Flash Pak starts at $45,000.00.

 

Cut and pasted from the Thomson Grass Valley press release:

 

 

Pricing and Availability

 

Pricing for the Grass Valley Venom FlashPak system starts at ?45,000.

 

 

That little symbol before the 45,000 is the Euro, not the dollar.

Thomson is a French company. The United States is not the world, at least not yet.

[Greg Gross]

Well I assure you my friend that it was printed somewhere there yesterday

at just $45,000.00 without the euro sign. I suspect that it was realized and

corrected. By the way the United States does rule the world, no one else has

the brains or the guts to do it.

 

Greg Gross

P.O. Box 5057

Professional Photographer

3122 Green St.

Harrisburg,PA 17110

Tele. 717-233-9065

[Greg Gross]

Hey mmost,

Why don't you come out of hiding?

Whats your profession? Whats your name?

 

Greg Gross

[Balazs Rozsa]

The genesis does record 50 minutes but only in 4:2:2, if your recording in 4:4:4 it's 25 minutes (the tape is moving twice as fast).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

As Elhanan already pointed out, that's exactly how the SRW1 works. It is how it achieves 4:4:4 recording with less compression (due to an 880mbps recording rate),

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Where do you get this information? I could only find that the SRW1 records in both the 4:2:2 and the 4:4:4 mode at a rate of about 440 mbps and the 880 mbps mode is used for recording two streams of video.

 

Balazs

[Mike Brennan]

Where do you get this information? I could only find that the SRW1 records in both the 4:2:2 and the 4:4:4 mode at a rate of about 440 mbps and the 880 mbps mode is used for recording two streams of video.

 

Balazs

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

From a review of the SRW1 I wrote for last edition of High Definition Magazine

 

The most versatile feature of the SRW1 is its ability to switch compression ratios.

In 4:2:2 mode it compresses 2.7/1 for a data rate of 440mbs

In 4:4:4 SQ mode it compresses 4.2/1 for a data rate of 440mbs

In 4:4:4 HQ mode it compresses 2/1 for a data rate of 880mbs

In stereo 4:2:2 mode two separate 4:2:2 pictures are recorded at a rate of 880mbs

 

It achieves the 880mbs rate by running the tape at double speed.

A future upgrade will also enable the SRW to record 720 60p.

 

Panavision say that special Genesis SRW1s will be able to do 1920x1080 50p.

 

 

Mike Brennan

[Balazs Rozsa]

Thanks for the info!