Filming in the snow

[peter courtney]

I am going to be shooting my first feature on super 16mm and need a little advice.

The feature is to be shot almost totally as ext. daytime shoots.

 

The film has very little budget and has been written so the least lighting will be needed. What I am curious about is if anyone has had experience shooting in the snow. The film revolves around the snowboarding community in a small town of New Zealand. A large percentage of it takes place out on the ski fileds.

I was hoping tom use total natural lighting as power supply is a problem.

If any one has had experience shooting on mountains, what problem did you encounter. I imagine that the snow gives a lot of reflection, which I am hoping for.

Can you recommend a good film stock for this. I was thinking the 500t as I have heard a lot about it and it seems a good all round film without too much grain.

 

The remainder of the film is shot in varying locations, most out in the country away again from any good power supplies.

 

There is only one night exterior scene. Where it takes place is there is no lighting at all. No street lights or anything to fake. I was thinking of shooting day for night, but have very little idea of how this works.

 

I respect where the director is coming from, having a very little budget he needs to make everything as simple as possible, but I am concerned if this will affect the final look of the picture.

 

The internal scenes will be lit so there is no problem with them.

 

Are there any films you could point out that have been shot using almost total natural lighting. I was watching lost in translation and certain of them scenes look as if no extra lighting was used.

 

Thanks for your help. I hope it makes some sense.

 

Peter Courtney

[GeorgeSelinsky]

Shooting on snow simply means more fill available all around, which of course is nice. But I'd still take a silver card with me. It's indispensable.

 

Silver cards (shiny and matte) are the cheapest way to light anything, as long as Mr. Sunshine, a bright sky, or another light source is there, and they're vital for good fill light. Certainly cheaper and more mobile than rigging an HMI with a silk outside. If you look at the silent movie sets you'll see that they used mirrors a lot. Problem of course is that the sun moves, so the person with the fill card will have to move too. Also, you're never going to get the same control as you would with an HMI/silk setup. But the silver card has worked for me a lot of times.

 

Most precautions about shooting in the snow are aimed at point and shoot photographers who's auto electric eye P&S cameras are fooled by the snow into underexposure.

 

Night exteriors are tough to shoot w/o light, because street lights as a general rule don't put out much. A city would go broke if they put a 5K light on every post, nor would the population like so many footcandles at their window during the night. Day for night is only okay if you want to simulate moon light. I tend to not like day for night, but that's my personal taste. The problem is that you can't show a street light or other practical light in a day for night setup - I mean, you'd have to set up a huge light that significantly overpowers the sun.

 

So I strongly suggest you get some 2K's as a minimum, or pair up your 1K's, and shoot at night (or at dusk, provided you move quickly to keep continuity), unless you're going for moonlight. In that case a deep blue filter without exposure compensation might do the trick.

 

7218 is probably a very good bet for what you want to do. You may end up pushing it in some instances, such as your night scenes (and I'd test the grain level with a Super 16 project meant for blowup, before making pushing a working option).

 

However, if your shoot plans to be exterior in the slopes and you know you will be in the daylight I'd consider 7246 Vision 250D, it would probably cut well with the '18 while offering a bit less grain (which would brighten your finder by a stop). Maybe you're willing to go with a larger grain difference like with the more fine grain Vision 2 100 (which is 64 in daylight, but you can always pull the filter to gain that extra speed in an emergency), or take your chances with the ultra fine grain 7245 EXR 50 D (which should be good for most daytime exteriors, but watch out if it gets overcast or when the sun goes behind a mountain - it gets darker faster in the mountains, remember).

 

- G.

[GeorgeSelinsky]

I respect where the director is coming from, having a very little budget he needs to make everything as simple as possible, but I am concerned if this will affect the final look of the picture.

A very common concern :unsure: Simple as possible can work just fine, it's all about cutting the corners in the right versus wrong places. There are tradeoffs and you have to know what they are.

 

Things like lighting do take time and crew to do, and from a practical perspective of course it's nice to have scenes where lighting is not necessary. But that might not mean that it won't be anyway.

 

When you're depending on freebies you have to be flexible, and when Mr. Sunshine is providing the freebie you gotta play by his rules. A partly cloudy day is probably the worst weather when it comes to continuity. When you want to tell the audience that shot A was taken simultaneously with shot B, and in reality you took them maybe 10 minutes, maybe 20 minutes, maybe 45 minutes apart, an awful lot of clouds can come in and out (especially if its windy), and the more time passes, the more the angle of the sun changes. That means that your coverage and takes are more limited than if you had an exterior artificial light source as a suppliment, which at least keeps the main subject itself lit consistently.

 

Also, what happens if day 3 was shot in the sun, but you had to break the scene into the next day for whatever reason? That means you'd better hope day 4 is going to be as sunny as day 3. If day 4 is cloudy, find something that can be done with cloud cover on that day and hope day 5 is sunny. But what happens if day 5 is sunny but you can't shoot at the same time of day all of the sudden, for whatever reason, and the angle of the sun is different?

 

You can try to cheat your way out of things like this - sometimes - with closeups using a long lens and at a low depth of field maybe (stack up on those ND's), but that's a continuity headache - better have those polaroids (or now, digital stills) ready for comparison.

 

I've shot a lot in the daylight and these are the problems you can come up with, which I particularly see a lot of in your situation.

 

My suggestion is to try and avoid long and large scenes outdoors, where lighting continuity would be a problem, and have those scenes take place inside. The more episodic stuff is, the easier it is to keep it all together on one page.

 

All in all, even the big budget shoots have problems with daytime continuity, it's a tough thing to control and schedule. Remember, your largest light source is beyond your control, so you gotta play by its rules - and when it comes to wide shots you can't out-HMI the sun (unless it's not there).

 

Just some thoughts for you, from a one time skiier.

[Mitch Gross]

If you are shooting daytime snowy exteriors I would not use 500T film. You'll have to stop down the lens so much and pile on so much ND filtration that every time you look up from the viewfinder you'll be blinded, or the viewfinder will simply look pitch black. Use a much slower film stock, perhaps the new 100T which is supposed to be super-sharp. And I agree with George that a shiny board is a great thing to bring along. Costs next to nothing and weighs the same, but can really save the day when you need a little light in someone's eyes.

 

As for the day for night, look back in the archives here for some commentary on this type of shooting. A good example is the dreamsequence at the end of "Immortal Beloved" which was almost entirely photographed Day for Night. The two main tricks are keeping the sun as back or edgelight and keeping the sky out of the shot.

[GeorgeSelinsky]

You'll have to stop down the lens so much and pile on so much ND filtration that every time you look up from the viewfinder you'll be blinded

Good point, wear very good polarized sun glasses when your eye is not in the finder.

 

I often find that when filming in mountaneous areas you end up encountering a lot of shadowy areas, and cloud cover can knock quite a few f-stops out too - depending how thick it is. Then there's also the loosing of the light which comes faster. Also, if you're doing stuff like skiing/snowboarding, the follow focus is a bit more of a bitch for some shots, and while at 12 o clock high this isn't an issue with slower stocks, as lighting conditions worsen it becomes an issue I'd be concerned with - especially w/o a decent focus puller.

 

So a faster stock may not be such a bad idea, and I personally prefer to keep one stock as much as possible to minimize short ending, which is why I suggested the '46. You can also expose it slower than its nominal 250 asa in many cases, with the fill from the snow I'd be less worried about excessive contrast. But I would also probably lean towards the new Vision 2 100 if I had a good feeling I could swing it, because with S 16 you really gotta fight for the grain.

 

- G.

[peter courtney]

Thanks for your help so far. I didn't expect so many replies so quickly.

You have given me a lot to think about.

I guess I forget something that looks good on 35mm stock may look terrible and grainy on super 16.

I wont be able to shot any test rolls until mid year, when the camera arrives from the States.

I was thinking about using reflector boards and a shallow depth of focus to help with continuity so I guess a slower film stock would be the way to go.

 

Cheers again for your help

Peter Courtney

[GeorgeSelinsky]

and a shallow depth of focus to help with continuity so I guess a slower film stock would be the way to go.

I didn't mean to imply that shallow focus or longer lenses are a cure all for continuity. It can help in some instances make things seem less noticeable, but it won't really cure a problem, so I wouldn't make that a deciding factor in your choice. I'd rather gain a stop or two on the focus pulling latitude, unless your focus puller is an ace (although with 16mm you already gain a stop over 35 in depth of field by virtue of the format), and better brave the lighting drops.

 

All the same it is true that grain is an influential factor with 16mm production, which is the main reason I'd give very strong consideration to a slower stock if I knew it wouldn't pose serious difficulties - focus pulling aside. I used to always shoot my 16mm projects at NYU on 7248, I'd always push for it from the director. I would however advise staying away from doing it all on 7245, as tempting as it might be with its near Kodachrome 25 grain. Something that slow gives you little leeway in case of a problem.

 

- G.

[stijnbarbe]

hi there, George & Mitch have already given you most answers on what you need to shoot your snowy ext day. But give gold reflector a try too because you might want to warm up the blueish tone you get on snow.

 

for your night ext, I have an idea.

Of course I don't know what the narrative content of the night ext scene is, but I've read that the film is on a snowboarding community in NZ, so why don't you make the snowboarders carry torches, but then you'll stiull have to fill in with some kind of lighting. and have the real or fake(fairly bright fresnel) moon act as a rim- or backlight. also aim 'the moon' at the snowy ground, it will also act as a reflector board.

you could have them carry flashlights, these weird combo-flashlights with built-in fluorescent tube are great for this kind of stuff. I already broke afew of those apart to use the small tubes in car scenes and other tight and "out in the woods" locations.

 

I also wouldn't shoot DfN because of the general illumination in the background.

on stock I'd also suggest Vision 2 100T(7212) for day ext and for night and interiors I'd use vision 2 500T(7218) and try to get Kodak to give you a discount since they are launching vision2 stocks right about now.

 

when you're done shooting put some stills or a small clip online, I'd love to see what you've done.

[peter courtney]

Thanks George, Mitch and Stijn. I like the idea of a gold fleck board. I am thinking now of going with the 100t for the day exteriors, and maybe something a little faster that cuts well with the 100t for the night and interior shots. I have done a lot of shooting on super 8mm as it has been a cheap way to get my head around film. I never really put two and two together. If I can get the desired exposure I wanted on kodachrome, then I will be able to get it on a slow film on 16mm. I think it is just the initial nerves of carrying off this project. I am going to sit down with the director and go through the night scene again seeing if we can move it around a little so we can have some more light sources to cheat. It is nice working with a practical minded director who you can work these problems through with.

I will post some of the test shots when I get them done. Though it will be a while.

Thanks again

Peter Courtney

[GeorgeSelinsky]

If I can get the desired exposure I wanted on kodachrome, then I will be able to get it on a slow film on 16mm.

I don't know what you shot on Super 8, but first of all for a feature film you have extended sequences and a schedule that requires you to be ready for varying lighting conditions. So you have to be a bit more cautious than if you just took a Super 8 camera to take some shots outside.

 

Second, Super 8 also has a higher depth of field than Super 16, so focus errors are hard to really notice.

 

I personally think that with the Vision 100 asa you'll probably do just fine in most circumstances. But I'd carry a few rolls of 250 with me as well, just to be safe. Believe me, if you gotta go into an overcast day you'll be happy you did (and btw, overcast days are the easiest days to maintain lighting continuity - no sun angle to worry about).

 

I know, we're all spoiled by fast stocks, back in the day people shot asa 25 film and so on and so forth. But I feel it's important to be as flexible as possible in a low-low budget situation.

 

- G.