We say Conrad Hall & Greg Tolland were the best...

[Brad Grimmett]

My point is that films like Citizen Kane are considered the greatest films of all time, and here they are being sold for next to nothing in private DVD shops.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're right. It's horrible that you can see so many classic movies for so cheap!

[Guest Daniel J. Ashley-Smith]

Dan, you are very resilient.

Yeh well I've never really given up on anything, and I'm sure as hell not going to give up film.

 

When you suggest that their skill in that area cannot go beyond remembering what they saw in the viewfinder, and that one stock is grainier than another, you DO insult the craft.

When did I suggest that?! I said you would have to have a great deal of experience to know exactly what the results would come out like. I never said it was impossible. About all I said was that thing never come out as you imagined, which, may not be true, considering some DP's apparently know exactly how it will come out, but in this film I'm making in the summer, I have some strange feeling it's going to look a lot different.

 

When you say that directing is all about telling the actors how to say their lines, you also sell the skills very very short.  That one has been answered earlier in this thread.

I'd hardly say I said anything about telling the actors how to say their lines, being ALL about directing. Of course you don't tell them how to say it, but being an actor myself sometimes I could tell them how to say it on the odd accasion, if they aren't giving me what I want. I probably wouldn't say anything atall if it came to it actually.

 

You're right. It's horrible that you can see so many classic movies for so cheap!

Well it's still an advantage for us that do like the old classics, because then *we* get them for cheap.

[Brian Rose]

My vote is for Vittorio Storaro and Vilmos Zsigmond. I just love their work on APocalypse Now (especially with the new imibibation print) and McCabe & Mrs. Miller, respectively.

Best

BR

[Micah Fernandez]

My point was that the shots in Road to Perdition e.t.c. looked good, but if you want good looking shots then just look at these music videos.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Any girl-friend of mine with half a sense of aesthetic would know how to compose a photo intuitively and come out with a nice-looking shot. Music videos are a jumble of those individual nice-looking shots. They don't need to look the same, you don't have to worry about continuity of not only lighting but geography, you don't have to worry about a narrative story that you're trying to push.

 

A feature film requires all of this. The look has to be relatively consistent throughout 60-120 sequences of anywhere between 1-15 shots per sequence, under extremely different lighting conditions. The camera movement has to be well-thought out, rather than just dollying, craning and zooming for no apparent reason other than "It looks cooler!", as you seem to unconditionally approve of. There's a STORY that the camera is REQUIRED to cover, there's a bare minimum of frivolous (if any at all) shots, no matter how "cool" they look. Some movies manage to photograph the story and look like a postcard rack at the same time (Girl with a Pearl Earring, Behind the Sun, etc) and personally that is a creative level that I aspire to achieve. You should know that shooting a music video and a feature film are completely different disciplines.

[Jonathan Spear]

""Any girl-friend of mine with half a sense of aesthetic would know how to compose a photo intuitively and come out with a nice-looking shot. Music videos are a jumble of those individual nice-looking shots. They don't need to look the same, you don't have to worry about continuity of not only lighting but geography, you don't have to worry about a narrative story that you're trying to push.""

 

Who cares what your imaginary girlfriends think??

 

There are MANY videos out there that are a lot deeper than some of the $hyte Hollywood conjures up.

 

Mmmmmmmm/Crash Test Dummies -- has a stronger sense of story than most of the films that came out this year.

 

Smells like teen spirit/Nirvana -- that "feel" and "look" birthed an entire movement.

 

U2 definately have some videos worth checking out.

Heck, you might even learn something.

 

Jeremy/Pear Jam...

 

Enter sandman/Metallica...

 

The list goes on and on.

 

Get off your high horses folks... you're all full of Gigli.

[Jonathan Spear]

the last thing this world needs is another carravagioesque carbon copy "film" by some premadonna filmmaker.

 

some of you guys talk about filmmaking like it's a f - - - - -g sport.

 

Dan -- use your B.S. filter with this thread.

[Rik Andino]

Any girl-friend of mine with half a sense of aesthetic would know how to compose a photo intuitively and come out with a nice-looking shot. Music videos are a jumble of those individual nice-looking shots. They don't need to look the same, you don't have to worry about continuity of not only lighting but geography, you don't have to worry about a narrative story that you're trying to push.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I can't believe this thread is still going...

It's refusal to die no matter how many people want it to die is inspiring...

& with that said I shall shamelessly continue to aid this thread.

 

Shooting a Music Video isn't as easy as you're saying...

Yes continuity is not necessary but the opposite is needed--contrast.

You have to make sure the shots contrast each other...and everything varies

A video that doesn't have variations is usually a boring one.

 

You have to be aware how contrasting an angle is going to be to the other ones

How different the lighting styles will be...One location is blue another red...etc...

 

There is some form to the madness--

It's not just a running around with a camera shooting a band--& BANG! A video.

(Although sometimes some are like that)

 

& this is pretty hard for many directors who are used to continuity

And can't get their brains around the need for constant variation within a video.

 

Besides that shooting a video requires alot of policticking...more so than featues

You have to please and appease a bunch of people

Eho know nothing of filmmaking and set operations and can be somewhat difficult

That in itself is a hard job already.

 

So it isn't all bisquits and tea like you're figuring.

[Rik Andino]

Of course I forget to mention...

 

That is not to say that shooting a feature is easy.

 

The way I see it shooting a feature is like a marathon

It's getting into a good flow, keeping you pace and maintaining your energy

 

Music Videos and Commercials are more like short distance hurdles

You have to fast and able to manuver through obstacles.

[Micah Fernandez]

Geez, relax. All I was saying was that MVs are a different breed from features and generally (yes, more often than not) aesthetic is the minimum requirement; a story is not. I guess I should have put it more simply as Rik managed to, but c'mon, lighten up.

[Jonathan Spear]

"Geez, relax."

 

This thread is pretty intense, I can't just --

 

Oh, alright.

 

I'll calm down.

 

:D

[Boone Hudgins]

the last thing this world needs is another carravagioesque carbon copy "film" by some premadonna filmmaker.

Pre-Madonna? Wow, you really are influenced by music videos. Har har.

 

I didn't hear anybody really insulting music videos, except for that Micah fellow, and I still don't know what he's getting at. There are a lot of great cinematographers in music videos: Jeff Cronenweth, Harris Savides, Malik Sayeed, Daniel Pearl, John Mathieson, and more. All of those named have done features.

[Guest Daniel J. Ashley-Smith]

Any girl-friend of mine with half a sense of aesthetic would know how to compose a photo intuitively and come out with a nice-looking shot. Music videos are a jumble of those individual nice-looking shots. They don't need to look the same, you don't have to worry about continuity of not only lighting but geography, you don't have to worry about a narrative story that you're trying to push.

Actually I bet any of your "girlfriends" couldn't. If your talking about framing a shot in a stills camera viewfinder nicely, then my 7 year old sister should become a DP, but I'm talking about making a shot look "stunning", I mean so it looks professional and aesthetically pleasing. For most people this is hard to do, it takes a lot of artistic skill and know how.

 

The camera movement has to be well-thought out, rather than just dollying, craning and zooming for no apparent reason other than "It looks cooler!", as you seem to unconditionally approve of.

Unconditionally aprove of? This is getting on my nervous now, I seem to be getting accused for a lot of crap I don't even know about. Since when th hell did I ever say they people use cranes and dollies e.t.c. just to make it look "cool" ?

 

Being a DP believe it or not I DO understand how to frame e.t.c. On my summer film, I've already got the entire film planned from colours, lighting to framing all in my head! And the framing will help tell the story, aswell as looking good.

 

You should know that shooting a music video and a feature film are completely different disciplines.

As I mentioned in the first post of this thread.

 

Dan -- use your B.S. filter with this thread.

:lol: Hmm.. what strength? BS-9 or 10?]

 

but c'mon, lighten up.

Ha... Welcome to the cinematography board...

 

 

After alot of thinking, I just find that a lot of people here think cinematography is all about conformity, all about studying cinematographers like Greg Tolland e.t.c. Well, I choose not to, I choose to make my own films the way I want to. That's what separates me from people on this board, the fact that I couldn't give a da-m about conformity, I'm NOT taking the same road as others do. I'm not going through any film school, I'm not taking any film courses whatsoever. As far as I'm concerned film school is a waste of money anyway.

 

What does a film look like when you shoot it from the heart and not from a textbook?

[Tim Tyler]

What does a film look like when you shoot it from the heart and not from a textbook?

 

You should show us, Daniel.

[Rik Andino]

After alot of thinking, I just find that a lot of people here think cinematography is all about conformity, all about studying cinematographers like Greg Tolland e.t.c. Well, I choose not to, I choose to make my own films the way I want to. That's what separates me from people on this board, the fact that I couldn't give a da-m about conformity, I'm NOT taking the same road as others do. I'm not going through any film school, I'm not taking any film courses whatsoever. As far as I'm concerned film school is a waste of money anyway.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I can't believe I'm still posting in this thread! WHY?

Why am I compelled?

You're comments Dan say what you want--they force a respond.

That probably the best thing about them.

 

Anyways...

Cinematography many times is about conforming...

You don't know it yet because you have little professional experience

But as a cinematographer you have to conform to another's vision.

 

No matter how much a cinematographer wants--it's not their movie.

It's either the director's film or the producer's or the studio's or etc...

But rarely ever is it the cinematographer's call.

 

If a cinematographer wants to maintain his/her job

They must conform to another's vision more often than not.

Haven't you see many cinematographers complain about the final look of the film?

That's because many have very little say of the end product.

 

Out here we called it the real world

And while everything to you seems so easy now because you're young

As you grow up and venture into THE REAL WORLD...

You'll notice things will get complicated really quickly.

 

You can't just choose not to conform--

You're choices will usually be conform or die!

Or usually just conform or get fired :)

With your attitude you'll wind up getting fired alot until you conform.

 

Eitherways look forward to growing up--it'll be fun. :rolleyes:

{Well at least you'll be able to drink your problems away}

 

 

Jesus now I feel like goddamn pa.

[David Mullen ASC]

Knowing and honoring the history of your own chosen artform, and being respectful of fellow professionals, past and present, is not a sign of personal weakness nor a sign of a lack of originality. Ignoring the past and showing disrespect, however, IS a sign of personal weakness.

 

It's easy to be an original thinker -- when you are so ignorant of the past that you don't know someone else already had the same idea.

 

The way I see it, unless you are a genius on the level of Mozart, or can guarrantee that an inordinate amount of luck will come your way, the only path to artistic and career achievement that makes any sense is to work your ass off learning from others and from the past, from anywhere you can. And even Mozart had a strong classical training in music from the earliest age, so genius was not enough, even for him. And the first step in learning is to admit one's own ignorance and to be open-minded to what the world can teach you. You can always reject some of it later when you are experienced and working regularly, because THEN you have a knowledge base plus your own experience to judge things more accurately and fairly.

 

But if you start out life early on deciding that you will only learn "x" and not "y", and repel all who attempt to teach you, all that you ensure is that you will be ill-prepared, ill-educated, with very pedestrian and shallow artistic tastes, for the very career you claim to be interested in having. It's the quickest path to either failure or becoming a working hack.

[Guest]

"That's what separates me from people on this board, the fact that I couldn't give a da-m about conformity, I'm NOT taking the same road as others do. I'm not going through any film school, I'm not taking any film courses whatsoever. As far as I'm concerned film school is a waste of money anyway."

 

Wow Dan! I was ignoring this thread, it looked boring.

 

But I see you've really gone off the deep end now, and I haven't even been encouraging

you :D

 

You even provoked a rare lashing from David Mullen, that takes talent.

 

I love this line...

 

"That's what separates me from people on this board..."

 

Ok that's just classic, very good.

 

Regardless of how your summer film comes out I give you a 10/10 for entertainment value on this board.

 

Richard

[Jonathan Spear]

Richard,

 

There's a big difference between giving advice and being rude. Rik, David, Tim, Boone, Micah and pretty much everyone else who contributed to this thread are confident enough of themselves to not see Daniel as a threat.

 

Your post reeks of jealousy.

 

=====================================================

 

 

""That's what separates me from people on this board, the fact that I couldn't give a da-m about conformity, I'm NOT taking the same road as others do. I'm not going through any film school, I'm not taking any film courses whatsoever. As far as I'm concerned film school is a waste of money anyway."

 

Wow Dan! I was ignoring this thread, it looked boring.

 

But I see you've really gone off the deep end now, and I haven't even been encouraging

you

 

You even provoked a rare lashing from David Mullen, that takes talent.

 

I love this line...

 

"That's what separates me from people on this board..."

 

Ok that's just classic, very good.

 

Regardless of how your summer film comes out I give you a 10/10 for entertainment value on this board.

 

Richard""

[Guest]

TSM,

 

Thanks for that....

 

"Your post reeks of jealousy"

 

You made my day, I laughed out loud!!

 

You and Daniel make a great team and keep me coming back for more. You are both brilliant comedy writers, brilliant!!

 

Please give me some more, hey call me that "B" word you like to use a lot, oh that just kills!

 

Thanks!

Richard

[Guest Daniel J. Ashley-Smith]

It's easy to be an original thinker -- when you are so ignorant of the past that you don't know someone else already had the same idea.

I'm not entirely intersted in making original work, just to call it original. I'm just interested in making films the way I want to, so, in a way I'm making original work, because I haven't copyed it off anyone, even though it may already be done.

 

I mean it's like desperately trying to create original poetry, I wouldn't be interested, I would just want to write poems of my own. Even if other poets have done it.

 

Reading your post David, I have to agree with it, although, it's honestly not the road I want to take. Thanks for you concern, but I'm just going to make films that I like to make, even if it means failure, atleast, unlike most DP's, I'll be creating my own work that I feel passionate about.

 

Well, tnx for the post anyway, I have taken it in, and am still thinking about it.

 

 

You and Daniel make a great team and keep me coming back for more. You are both brilliant comedy writers, brilliant!!

Hey just write to our fan mailing list at " richard@whatever.biatch " :P

 

Well, not that I'm looking to start another big arguement here, since as we had some ceise fire agreement, but I honestly would like to know why you never seem to put any constructive input into these threads.

 

"Your post reeks of jealousy"

 

You made my day, I laughed out loud!!

But, why do you say your laughing? Because your not exactly putting up a fight against the point Jonathon made, so, maybe he's right. You obviously think different, so please, explain why.

[Guest]

"but I honestly would like to know why you never seem to put any constructive input into these threads."

 

Obviously Daniel you have not read many of my posts there are dozens of cases where I have given info to fellow film folk, that they have found very useful.

 

Not too mention all of the personal messages I get asking questions, which I respond to in detail.

 

Come on...you think it's just me that thinks many of your statements on this thread are quite out landish? If that's the case then you have not read many of the other posts.

 

I notice you have not responded directly to the critique given to you from Dominic Case and David Mullen, is that because you fear the wrath of the other board members if you do?

 

Yes the cease fire still holds, I was just surprised to see you start such a fight on this board with out any help from me this time.

 

Richard

[Guest Daniel J. Ashley-Smith]

Obviously Daniel you have not read many of my posts there are dozens of cases where I have given info to fellow film folk, that they have found very useful.

 

Not too mention all of the personal messages I get asking questions, which I respond to in detail.

Well, so far I haven't see any apart from typical insulting messages.

 

Come on...you think it's just me that thinks many of your statements on this thread are quite out landish?  If that's the case then you have not read many of the other posts.

What posts exactly? I know I can go a bit, or alot even, overboard at times, but this is usually in protest of certain comments. I mean, people are saying that I will fail because I'm not interested in conforming to other peoples work. Well, my plan is to prove that theory wrong.

 

I notice you have not responded directly to the critique given to you from Dominic Case and David Mullen, is that because you fear the wrath of the other board members if you do?

If I disagree I'll only get told I don't listen to anybody. If I go along with it and say how I agree with them, I'd only be lying. Theres no winning here. The only way I will ever win is to show people that what I am saying actually means something, it's not just some crazy thought stuck together with prit-stick by some youngster.

 

Yes the cease fire still holds, I was just surprised to see you start such a fight on this board with out any help from me this time.

Actually it's more a debate, were not arguing about 100% pathetic subjects.

[Brad Grimmett]

Thanks for you concern, but I'm just going to make films that I like to make, even if it means failure, atleast, unlike most DP's, I'll be creating my own work that I feel passionate about.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Once again, you're generalizing and saying that, "unlike most DP's, I'll be creating my own work that I feel passionate about". Most DP's ARE passionate about their work. I'm not sure where you get the idea that they aren't.

This plan of yours isn't setting you up for failure, it's guaranteeing it. If you refuse to do anything that you don't like then you'll never be able to work with anyone as a DP. Even brilliant directors have to conform with studios and producers and actors all the time. If they didn't they wouldn't be able to get a job. It's the same for every person working on a film set.

Of course, as I said before, if all you want to do is make home movies, then your plan is perfect. Just don't expect anyone besides your family and friends to see it.

Edited April 30, 2005 by grimmett

[Guest]

Yawn.....

 

Here's some for you Daniel read the threads.....

 

http://www.cinematography.com/forum2004/in...?showtopic=6299

 

http://www.cinematography.com/forum2004/in...?showtopic=6208

 

http://www.cinematography.com/forum2004/in...?showtopic=6390

 

http://www.cinematography.com/forum2004/in...?showtopic=6346

 

I won't post any of the personal messages I've answered as I don't have permission from the senders, but there have been a lot.

 

Richard

[Guest]

And finally....

 

"The only way I will ever win is to show people that what I am saying actually means something, it's not just some crazy thought stuck together with prit-stick by some youngster."

 

Actually the way you will win is not by talk, it will be by action.

 

When you post a link to a film you shot that is as good as you claim it will be, then every one will have no choice but to eat humble pie and say, "By jove that kid is a genius! He was right all along!"

 

Richard

[Guest Frank Gossimier]

And finally....

 

"The only way I will ever win is to show people that what I am saying actually means something, it's not just some crazy thought stuck together with prit-stick by some youngster."

 

Actually the way you will win is not by talk, it will be by action.

 

When you post a link to a film you shot that is as good as you claim it will be, then every one will have no choice but to eat humble pie and say, "By jove that kid is a genius! He was right all along!"

 

Richard

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Good grief I'll second that!!!

 

Frank