1080i vs 720p vs XL2 DV

April 23, 2005

If I could have a dollar for each forum I have searched (without finding a solution)in the last month I probably could have bought an XL2, a DVX and an FX1 and then I wouldn't have the dilemma as to which camcorder to buy.

The HD wave has swamped the DV community's confidence or so it appears.

Is it really a question of resolution or is it the aspect ratio that's actually the issue. I read a lot on how good the DVX material is but it doesn't have wide screen. It appears to me that the 16x9 vs 4x3 debate actually makes up the major content of various forums.

When the first prosumer 1080i arrived it was all the rage in prediction of the new way of video. It is only now that the actual users of these cameras come forward with issues regarding artifacts and sound. This appears to mainly concern panning or faster movement. As readers would have gathered by now I am no expert on video hence asking for others' opinion/advice. My question is; is 1080i so good an image that the flaws ie. focus also show up twice as bad?. I noticed that the camcorder manufacturers of this year's releases all made allowances for 720p. Is that an indication of the way HD is heading? Many contributors to forums remark on the fabulous picture of 1080i of prosumer cameras (leave the $60.000.- pro gear right out of this debate) however, I get the impression that this is achieved under very controlled conditions. I would appreciate an actual 1080i user's comments on how this format performs in conditions such as filming from a moving platform plane, boat etc. or handheld in a rainforest etc.

As I said I don't know enough about these technicalities and would appreciate advise from an operator with hands-on experience. thanks

Rik Andino · April 23, 2005

Asking others for advice on what camera to purchase

Sometimes is the same as asking others who should you marry.

We all have varying opinions and will tell them to you...

Trying to convince you that what's right for us is right for you...

Which isn't always the case.

What do you need the video camera for?

What do you intend to do with the camera?

Answering these question will help you know what is the best camera to buy

Shopping for a camera takes time...

And at the moment the DV format is evolving

So people are unsure of what's happening...it's just like puberty...

So you have to be patience if you want to make the right decision.

Good Luck

April 23, 2005

Hi Rik,

I appreciate your comments and yes it does look like asking someone else to make a decision. What I am attempting is for hands-on camera operators to offer their practical experience to those of us who do not have the outrageous HD budgets of National Geographic or the BBC etc. I am one of those who have the intention to market a video by using the next-best format ie. prosumer. I do not think that it is as simple find out what you want and then buy the camera that suits you. If that were so simple then I am sure most of us would be quite happy to play around with cheaper,smaller and easier to use cameras. It is my opinion that when one attempts to sell a video then it is up to the buyer ie. TV station who can dictate which format suits him/her/them best. So far I have had only one authorit-ative reply from a small Station what format the would prefer in the next five years. cheers

nchopp · April 23, 2005

Hi Rik,
I appreciate your comments and yes it does look like asking someone else to make a decision. What I am attempting is for hands-on camera operators to offer their practical experience to those of us who do not have the outrageous HD budgets of National Geographic or the BBC etc. I am one of those who have the intention to market a video by using the next-best format ie. prosumer. I do not think that it is as simple find out what you want and then buy the camera that suits you. If that were so simple then I am sure most of us would be quite happy to play around with cheaper,smaller and easier to use cameras. It is my opinion that when one attempts to sell a video then it is up to the buyer ie. TV station who can dictate which format suits him/her/them best. So far I have had only one authorit-ative reply from a small Station what format the would prefer in the next five years. cheers

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You still didn't answer his question - which is the most important one. WHAT are you going to be shooting? If you're going to be doing videos for a college campus with an HD system, you'll want to consider the FX1. If you're going to be working on narratives, a short or feature film, you'll want a camera with true 24p - the XL2 and DVX-100A are the standards for that right now. (In the sub $10,000 range, of course)

As to the panning - it's part of shooting at 24 frames per second. It's commonly referred to as strobing; and generally happens when you have an operator that's not accustomed to shooting at 24 - i.e. someone who shoots primarily video.

April 23, 2005

Hi Nicholas,

thanks for the comment. To fully expose my video ignorance here I must admit I was toatally unaware that subject matter would dictate a TV station's video format preference. I thought it was the technical factor ie. HD or DV. As I indicated I am seeking advise regarding camera/format information with the idea of selling to TV. Seeing that subject matter is so important well, I suppose it's documentary as it deals with shipwrecks etc. I simply (hell, this is complicated) wanted to gauge if DV was still a viable investment for the next few years or if it was wiser to go for high definition now. The reason why I want to know about the so-called "strobing"

is that a lot of my video involves aerial, on boat and 4WD footage ie. moving viewpoint. Anyhow, I think the 2005 cameras more or less made the decision a little easier now. regards H

Rik Andino · April 24, 2005

To fully expose my video ignorance here I must admit I was toatally unaware that subject matter would dictate a TV station's video format preference. I thought it was the technical factor ie. HD or DV. As I indicated I am seeking advise regarding camera/format information with the idea of selling to TV.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well for TV there a whole 'nother song & dance involved...

First of all--technically speaking MiniDV isn't a broadcast quality standard...

That said there are a couple of shows on TV shot with MiniDV cameras...

But that doesn't mean any shmoe with a DV camera can get their stuff on TV

HDV, which I'm not sure is a broadcast quality standard either...

Is an improvment But I don't know by how much

Anyways that also doesn't mean it'll help you get your stuff on TV

Getting your stuff on TV is more content based and it's also about who you are.

What I recommend:

You should talk to the stations you're planning on submitting

Ask them what are their technical criteria for accepting & airing work...

While you're at it ask them what are your chances of getting stuff aired.

And

If I were you I'd lean more to an HDV camera

Since it's better than a MiniDV camera in terms of resolution

(If you're interested in 30P and 24P wait for the JVC camera set for the summer)

Good Luck

Adam Frisch FSF · April 24, 2005

I'm no video guy, but I read an interesting and very technical article by some professsor about the old 1080i vs. 720p thing. And according to him progressive wins hands down in resolution even though it looks on paper like it has less resolution. Interlaced was the devils trickery according to him. Sorry if this has been taled about before.

As for HDV being an heavily mpeg2 derived format, that means any dropout will mean you loose a minimum of 15 frames. And with such a high datadensity on normal DV tapes, that sounds rather likely to happen.

nchopp · April 24, 2005

Well for TV there a whole 'nother song & dance involved...

First of all--technically speaking MiniDV isn't a broadcast quality standard...

That said there are a couple of shows on TV shot with MiniDV cameras...

But that doesn't mean any shmoe with a DV camera can get their stuff on TV

HDV, which I'm not sure is a broadcast quality standard either...

Is an improvment But I don't know by how much

Anyways that also doesn't mean it'll help you get your stuff on TV

Getting your stuff on TV is more content based and it's also about who you are.

What I recommend:

You should talk to the stations you're planning on submitting

Ask them what are their technical criteria for accepting & airing work...

While you're at it ask them what are your chances of getting stuff aired.

And

If I were you I'd lean more to an HDV camera

Since it's better than a MiniDV camera in terms of resolution

(If you're interested in 30P and 24P wait for the JVC camera set for the summer)

Good Luck

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I get so tired of this line "such and such isn't broadcast quality". There IS no broadcast quality standard. I've seen things shot on 35mm that I wouldn't put on local access, and I've seen projects shot on Hi8 that I would be proud to call my own. MiniDV certainly CAN be broadcast quality, and often IS broadcast quality. I've shot plenty of projects that were broadcast to over 150,000 homes on Charter Cable, and video quality was never an issue. I engineered the broadcast system for a D1 hockey telecast, so I know a bit about video engineering.

In short, if you control your light, MiniDV can look every bit as good as any other SD format. If I have the choice I'll definitely take something a little higher res\tape length (DigiBeta, DVCPRO 50, etc.), but you don't always. You shoot with what you can, and you take as much care as you can.

If you're looking to create a documentary in SD (standard definition) a Sony DVCAM will likely be your best bet. The Sony DSR PD-150\PD-170 is the standard camera for SD documentaries, with good reason. It's well-built, shoots a great picture, is a very small form factor, and has a great audio system. The picture matches up well with Sony's DSR series of DVCAMs, from the 250 on up to the 500 series. I've put a good 200 hours on the PD-150, and I just love the camera for documentary\ENG\EFP work. I'll gladly take it over an XL1 any day.

Another option is the JVC GY-DV500. It's a somewhat older (three or four years now) MiniDV camera by JVC - full shoulder-mount ENG form, with detachable lens (think it comes with a Fujinon 14x, could be a Canon though, not sure). It's another really solid SD camera, but it lacks some of the "convenience" features of the 150\170 (auto-focus, etc.)

Lastly, I would disagree entirely on the HDV suggestion. Until the cable networks and local access broadcasters get their standard figured out, you're wasting valuable time and money. It's going to be SD for a few years yet, so don't jump on a bandwagon just because of a buzzword - i.e. HD.

Just a few thoughts. Feel free to shoot me an e-mail if you want some more specific answers. I've got a shoot tomorrow, Steadicam work starts at 8:00 a.m., so I'd best turn in. *grin*

Edited April 24, 2005 by nchopp