Erkan Umut

Erkan,

 

I don't clearly see what you're trying to show here...

I don't think we can really compare those companies with what is happening here. All those people tried to introduce something new, a disruptive technology (like instant magazines for Eclair, reflex shutter for Arri or timecode for Beauviala). Here we just have a mix bag of already proven technology. Even if it's somewhat new to have all those technologies in one super 8 camera, it's nothing like a real engineering advance.

Nothing contrary to you!

We speak the same language here, of course :)

Why did I write the names of those key people? Because of the same you mentioned!

The reality might tell that, you guys, are looking for too much thing! Of course, its my opinion again, Tom...

If somebody wants to spend a lot of money than expected for a Super 8 camera, I am ready to try gathering all the people, whose are the retired engineers and technicians still alive in the former Soviet Union and China with a reasonable brain and labor work!!!

Tom,

The know-how is the key to success, and cannot be achieved easily, needs time... Manufacturing is only an important small detail. If you have the blue print and know the exact tolerances, its a child's play with todays CNC technology with the experienced workers.

Who is behind the eclair? Agusti Coma, Jacques Lecœur, and later on, Jean-Pierre Beauviala

and AATON? Jean-Pierre Beauviala (have been corresponded and discussed several times before)

and ARRI? Engineer Dr. Robert Richter, Erich Kaestner, Thomas Popp, and Günther Zoeh (have been met several times with the last two in Munich, Amsterdam and Istanbul before).

(We should give the people a chance, and should not underestimate serious amateurs, as well as semi-professionals. This is my thought of course.)

Best,

Erkan

Have you ever shot DS8? It basically uses a metal pressure plate system just like a 16mm camera. When 100D was available, i would splice DS8 and Super 8 cartridge film together and the contrast between the 2 was remarkable. The DS8 was a lot sharper and more stable, In fact it looked closer to 16mm 100D than Super 8 100D. 7285 was a soft stock to begin with, so the Vision3 films should look incredibly sharp with pin registration.

Anthony,

Thank you for your share, I liked it!

I have shot with ELMO C-300 using the DS8 magazine, QUARZ 2X8C-3, and Meopta A 8G2 Supra poop. They have no registration pins.

The Nordic people will gain popularity for the new attempts I think. :)

I remember the a-cam 16mm camera from Sweden. This time from Denmark. Next could be from Norway and Finland...

Friedmann wrotes:

"Der Hellsektor der Umlaufblende hat derzeit übrigens 180°, was aber auch noch einfach zu ändern wäre. Eine verstellbare Sektorenblende ist nicht vorgesehen, der konstruktive Aufwand ist schlichtweg zu hoch."

This means:

The open angle of the rotary shutter is currently 180 °, which would also still easy to change. An adjustable shutter is not provided, the design effort is simply too high.

One can definitely impact exposure and DOF with varying shutter speeds. Not as apparent as changes in the iris but measurable and visible.

Nicolas, do you believe yourself that I don't know that? :) You know me, maan. ;)

You misunderstood me buddy, what I mean this camera has no variable shutter (as far as I know) for the angular change the ramp requested for synced compensation automatically. I have used ramp several times in ARRI 435 ES and Advanced between 25 to 150fps...

By the way, you cannot change the DoF with the shutter angle exactly, but the image and movement sharpness, because you alter the exposure time. The similar is for the higher speed shootings!

DoF could be changed via F/T-stop change! This is an optical thing due to the circle of confusion ;)

All the Best,

Erkan

Nicholas, there is no way that you can compensate the ramp exposure, but via the synced lens aperture motor, in this camera as far as I know!

Tom, the pressure plate add-on will really work, because the image will be magnified for the HD resolution, also there is no need for a pin registration as the pull-down claw timing (delaying the claw, engaged in the perforation, prior to the sinusoidal movement for the transport phase) will work also well enough for this format. Tested in any format before with enough success, but larger formats show better steadiness with the registration pin...

Heikki, thank you for sharing your music video and the clip with us. The image smear (like the travel ghost in projectors) is not so bad. ;)

By the way, the large images (close-ups) have a deep depth of field due to the smaller format. I prefer shallow.

I am very happy that Friedmann mentions Nikon R10 in his great article. :) ;)

Heikki,

I am so sorry to hear that. An unlucky story... :(

For paying work, ohh, my goodness... You are absolutely right! Nothing is sure in the film business.

Once, my assistant didn't find time to check the camera before "in a hurry" shooting, and a silly boy, who is the rental house owner's son, have mixed the gates of the 16SRII and 16SRII HS accidentally while cleaning the cameras. The HS was rented by our producer for a music video. What a bad chance! The HS mags, having the lower pressure plate force than the regular ones, didn't match with the regular gate on the HS body (!), and the result: all the Tele photographed and wider open images were thrown away due to the flange focal problem...

I hope that the Lasse's camera fills the gap!!!

Anthony,

I prefer the cheap toys for the kids like those found in the Toys'R'us chains, even they have the 8mm film inside... :)

For me, its totally a crap!

Heikki,

Many people shoot the latest stocks with the old cameras. By the way, I am absolutely not against the new cameras.

It depends on the built quality and the service technician. No camera will give you any trouble if properly serviced by the right people.

More electronics (especially too complicated electronics like in the Canon 814/1014XL-S), more details, more headaches...

There is something called ergonomy (The applied science of equipment design, as for the workplace, intended to maximize productivity by reducing operator fatigue and discomfort). Think of the box cameras in photography...

Dear Tom,

I see you very well, my colleague! C'est genial. :)

I have respect your ideas. You are a fan of ZC1000, because of the manual effects, rewinding, top speed capabilities, and finally pressure plate due to the Single-8 system. I prefer some of those for 16mm not 8mm. I also have an ACLII and a Scoopic 16M set.

As far as I know, the re-manufacture was planned by the Wittner in Germany of the Beaulieu 4008 and 7008 PRO some years ago, but postponed...

Only time will tell! I don't want to write further before the Lasse's camera is released... What we saw is a couple of prototype pictures, the final camera might look different! But you, Tom, too, are right, if you leave the cosmetic appearance and design to the technicians only, it will be probably a monster for a camera using the small cartridges...

Lasse is right, too much manipulation can cause postponing the releasing time and confusion for the project. The best thing for Lasse and the team behind it, having made limited quantity first, then distribute to the several rental houses and selected filmakers to be able to get the pros and cons feedback.

Best,

Erkan

Tom,

As far as I understand the fixed angle is chosen for the cost of the system.

Nobody needs the motor shaft systems seen in the Bolexes, as well as motor changing options seen in the Arriflex 16St (S), 16M, and Bolexes, etc. in the past, these days. They are bulky for today's users and the new generation.

If you want higher speeds then you gonna have a camera accepting magazines for the bulk stocks as I have mentioned in my early posts.

I have owned and used ZC1000 "New" in the past, and was more than happy to sell it immediately. I prefer to use the term "legendary" for the Beaulieus. The Fujica line was never consisted of robust cameras. By the way, I have a full kit of Z800 now. I never try to compare my Nikon R10 even...

Lasse's camera is planned as a blimped production camera for the most available stocks of today, not for crash testing...

Dear Lasse,

Thanks for all your updates. Welcome back! How exciting news. I have a respect about all your efforts.

I do not want to be understand as an impolite person among the members including you. But I strongly believe that releasing schematics will be not a problem in this era despite its your own secret.

Its not a problem making clones nowadays, and was in the past. The most important thing is your build quality and after-sales service.

I know the manufacturers who have more than 50 years experience in this field and still active with the sophisticated people and machinery.

The big danger might come from China as they began to manufacture with the better manufacturing capability at very affordable and unbelievable prices.

Good luck, and I wish a wholeheartedly success in your sales.

All the Best,

Erkan

By the way, I am not familiar with the "dog ear"s.

The external VFs might cause the problems due to camera body dimensions.

Also, the old dog ears might split the light beams heavily, causing the loss for the transmitting optics to monitors, thou this might overcome with the gain increase, when the both are used.

Instead of utilizing the registration pin, the "claw retardation" might be an affordable alternative. If the claw rests well enough time during the standstill period while the shutter is open for the exposure, it will act as a reg-pin, very old solution for easier mechanical design (like ARRI 35, 1937, etc.). Why reg is important? You gonna show your picture on big theaters' large screens. Super 8?

The tests show that up to about 80fps will cause no problems in a compact camera for 35mm film, as ARRI released the 35 IIC HS model. Then, the thickness of the film gate, the lateral and side guides, the pad pressure all should be applied very precise.

If you attempt to use an HS "snap-on" magazine on the regular speed gate or vice versa, you will get out-of-focus pictures for sure, thou this is not the case for the latent camera we discuss here.

If you still need for an optical VF, then you have a limited alternative using the zooms having own VFs like Angenieux, etc. Please bear in mind that these optics are quite old, e.g. might have contrast loss and coating problems due to their age.

So resurrecting this thread...

 

Many scanners do not have a wide gate, so the right section of the negative will but cut off in the scanning process for this camera.

Pro8mm and Cinelicious, plus a few others, have widened gates for their scanners. But they are the most expensive places to go. Many will want cheaper options.

So what needs to happen is the display needs to provide an overlay so that you can see where the 4X3 image is and understand where at the left it will be cut off. That way people can still shoot for 4X3 scanners or telecine bays.

Is this making sense? I hope I am being clear. Obviously this would be a firmware thing die the display output.

 

Matt,

This is making sense for sure! You got very good point.

This is the pro way should be added...

Dear Members,

If you want to go deep a little further, lets visit my New Forum at http://kinemagraphein.freeforums.net

Thanks!

Carl, many thanks for your invaluable posts!

You know this business very well, I have no doubt for it!

What you can do is to write a simplified book about optics. Will be perfect for us interested in optics and wanted to go deep. Why not?

Many books about the subject are f*cking difficult for filmakers, except some good webs and papers...

This is a Forum (designated space for public expression), the people are here to discuss, whether its a Prof., student or child...

And should not be the place for personal unnecessary hustle and bastle, please guys...

Some professors prefer to stay off the Internet-forums and social-media and they only have cell-phone with telephone function. Otherwise they never get anything done.

 

Maybe that is wisdom many can take lesson from.

 

And stay away from people who claim the wind blows because the trees move.

Correct Andries!

My Professor Emeritus (Yılmaz Kaini, B.Sc. Ph.D.) would be a sure example. But he is dead 26 years ago...

I cannot imagine if my optics professor would post here, too :D

If Lasse would start a topic about a new lens for S8 cameras, probably we would discuss about the mechanics instead of optics now :D

It is oscillating up en down, like in a Beaulieu 4008/6000.

Ohh, yes, guillotine...

Thanks Andries!

(For those who want to learn more about these sh*ts, please look at back the diagrams posted as well.)

Lasse,

The term oscillating confuses me, is it rotating mirror shutter (360°total, inclined at 45° relative to the aperture). As far as I know, oscillating is used for a mirror body (the mirror inclined at 45°) connected to off-center (eccentric) disk to give the left right or vice versa movement...