Richardson Leao

As I was just there today, I asked at the Widescreen Centre: going to miniDV will cost 5 GBP, while going to DVD (either as DVD-Video or a DVD with QuickTime files for NLE) will cost aforementioned 4 GBP.

 

miniDV is the better solution re. picture quality and post-chain, that is clear, but going to DVD is quite popular for consumers who do not have either a miniDV camcorder they can use as a source player, let alone a standalone miniDV deck. Instead, they just pop the DVD-(video or data) into their Wintel PC or Apple Mac and can edit it with whatever application they can download as Free or Shareware from the Web - or iMovie 08, of course.

when i got married, i gave a couple of loaded s8 cams to some friends that did not have a clue about filming. It turned out very nice (I also did a small animation for my james bond-like father in law also in s8 and in the begining of the film. This was just filmed from the wall, but if you wanna see:

http://jcsmr.anu.edu.au/~rleao/my_wedding.mpg

50 something megs though...

Hello folks,

 

In my research, I've also come across the Cinema Products cameras. From what I can tell, they seem to be quiet and light, and much more reasonably priced. Are there any thoughts on these cameras? If their prices in general are cheaper, perhaps there is something I'm not aware of?

 

Thanks in advance,

T

than you loose the reflex option... If you don't want a reflex cam I'd then consider a ikonscope, new s16 camera.

By the way Olexandr,

do you know if it's possible to buy sound films from svema? and are they single perf? Many thanks!

I Don't know about 7222 films, but, i had a similar experiments with russian Svema B&W negative, print, sound, micro films.

The Svema negative films, processed by reversal techology show me not high result.

But, after consultation with guys from Svema, i understand why.

Svema B&W negative films have special antihalation, (non-halation) layer and this layer

show like light-struck film after re-exposing procedure with bulb and film have high value of minimum density and don't had light tones.

The guys from Svema recommend me to do of re-exposing at IR light.

And the result was better. But, the low intensivity of IR lighters ask of long time of re-exposing.

I think to test with chemical re-exposing too.

 

I receive of good result with print films ( Svema MZ-3 )and Sound films ( Svema ZT-8 ) and special films for microshooting ( Svema Mikrat-200, Mikrat-300 ).

Yes, of course, the print films and sound film have low speed, but, reversal processing can augment of final speed of film.

I have good result with ORWO DP-3 film and had final speed for shooting near 20..25 ASA.

 

Sound films show me high contrast.

sorry about the confusion... that's what I meant (thicker emulsion on reversal films). I think I might try it and post the results. Thanks for all the replies!

R

Actually it is the other way round; reversal stocks have thicker emulsions.

 

Most B/W films can be processed as negative or reversal. One of the exceptions is reversal film that has a silver anti-halation undercoat you cannot process these films to negative as they require the bleach to remove the undercoat.

 

You should be able to get a good result from 7222 as reversal but it is important to get all the processing steps correct and particularly the re-exposure correct. Too little exposure will give very poor results and actually it is also possible to give too much re-exposure and the film will start to solarise.

 

I should think in my time in labs I have processed most B/W films as reversal including positive stock, used for titles as it is better to shoot white letters on a black background and reversal process as it keeps flare to a minimum.

 

Brian

I have to shoot a very short scene and I have also a very short piece of 7222 neg. All the rest of the film was shot with foma. The question is, can I shoot with 7222 and develop it as reversal BW? I know it's possible with orwo and ilford, but not sure about the double-x. I presume that the main difference (appart from iso ratings) is that the base is thinner than tri-x and maybe some difference in halide shape? Thanks for the help!

richard

Tim,

 

You just need to find or make a negative holder for 16mm size negatives and use a normal B&W enlarger and darkroom set up. Never done this with 16mm film, but I made a negative holder years ago to hold micro film of motorcycle exploded parts lists and would print copies of the lists in my darkroom.

 

Now that everything is digital, I made a special slide that holds 16mm film and fits into my Nikon Coolscan film scanner so I can scan individual frames of 16mm and Super 16mm. It works pretty well.

 

Those are some ideas.

 

Best,

-Tim

Exactly, sometimes I do print two stripes of film together to see differences in contrast. BW (7231) is even easier as u don't need color paper or a color head (enlarger). Identifying the frame though... that has to be done either w/ the time code and film counter or by visual inspection. If you sent this to commercial labs to do, I presume you will have to cut your film, while, if you have access to a darkroom, you can enlarge your frame without cutting the film (with rewinders). Also, you can blow it up many, many centimeters (16mm is used in projection rooms and virtually, you could use a paper as big as the projection screen).

Hi all,

would anyone know where could I buy 16mm shortends/recans in europe? Cheers

Check these guys out (in norway):

http://www.smalfilm.no/en

fremkalling means developing (i think the pprice list is in english) and the telecine is very cheap

Hi Mathew,

 

I think you'll find that the Todd-AO £50 (+VAT = £58.75) is for the complete package. It includes the cost of one cart of Vision2 stock (200 or 500), processing, prep and telecine to BetaSP or DigiBeta. If you ask they'll also provide a dub to DVD or MiniDV as well.

 

I haven't got the exact figures to hand here at home, but I was quoted about £25 for them to telecine 50ft of S8, and their price for the film on its own is only a tad higher than some other UK sellers, and cheaper than others. If we reckon on that being about £12 then their processing is also about £12. Looked at in those terms its not too bad.

 

Their advantage is they are prepared to handle one cart. at a time. Other places may work out cheaper per ft, but the minimum lengths they'll handle can be a limitation for 'hobby' projects as there'll be a large bill in one go. The other thing you'll find from Todd-AO is that their telecine is a 'best light', most other places will offer 'one light'.

 

If you compare with the price from Andec:

 

x4 carts of V2 stock = 4x19.25 =77 Euro

x4 carts. processed at Andec is 4x20Euro = 80 Euro

Prep. for telecine is 0.40 / meter = 24.40 Euro

10 minutes of negative telecined to BetaSP from Andec is 250 Euro, and in the absence of further details I'd guess it's one light.

Foreign treatment charge = 3.50 Euro

 

Total = 434.90 + VAT = 517.53 Euro

So approx. £402.76 plus whatever UK customs may wish to add on top.

This works out at £2.01 / ft

 

 

The same thing from Todd is 4x50 = £200 + VAT = £235

So £1.18 / ft

 

In fairness, Andec will Tk to MiniDV only, for half the price of their BetaSP Tk (thus bringing their overall price to £259.22), but then it's no longer a direct comparison with Todd.

 

 

If you do the maths you may be surprised to find out just how quickly 16mm becomes cheaper: List price for 100ft of stock in the UK is about £25 (+VAT, direct from Kodak with free postage). The best I've found for process/prep/Tk is 21p/ft with 400ft minimum (about 10 minutes), best light to BetaSP/DigiBeta.

 

4x£25 = £100

400x0.21 = £84

£184+VAT = £216.20 or £0.54/ft (but don't forget 16mm uses twice the length of S8 for the same screen time).

 

16mm also has the advantage you can get short ends/recans/unused stock at cheaper prices. I've got a couple of 400ft cores of 7201 in the fridge which cost me £30 each. I have to respool it onto 100ft spools myself, but for my own projects I'm prepared to take the risk of the problems using non-fresh stock can give. For ME it's worth the risk, if I was on a paid job or filming a once in a lifetime occasion then I'd use fresh stock. Of course if one is eligible for a student discount then all those prices can fall further. Unfortunately I'm not :(

Thanks folks,

 

Can you explain in basic terms the differences between these two models along with the pros and cons:

 

Eclair ACL and NPR

 

Thanks again for helping me along, and any other posts are will welcome.

 

T

don't forget the kinor yet...

the complete kit has several primes and zoom lenses, with glasses comparable to top arri lenses. The cam is ultra stable (reg pin included) and Olexandr Kalynichenko can modify the camera to do multispeed (including 64fps) for a very reasonable price.

Hi All,

We recently shot a short using foma 16mm film and I am in love with the stock. Very silver rich, nice blacks, simply wonderful. So I wonder if there is anyone in sweden interested in getting some foma 16mm together so we could manage to get some discount from foma.

Tack!

richardson

kinor 16cx (in my opinion it's the best u can take for <1k

scoopic

i think pentaflexes have zoom also

Hello All,

 

I'm looking to upgrade to the next level in terms of a camera. I now have a Kodak Cini k-100 turret camera. I think it's extremely stable and durable. However, it doesn't have a reflex viewfinder, no zoom lens, and no motor only wind.

 

My question is what would the "next level" camera be and is it possible to get one with a zoom lens, battery operated motor, and reflex finder, for under $1,000. One camera that seems to fill the need is a Beaulieu R16 w/Angenieux 12-120.

 

Any recommendations on this model or others would be appreciated.

 

Thanks,

Tom

Hi All,

there was a post about problems processing foma films and I have developed over 300m of the film over the last week. Verdict:

the bleach exhausts faster than with kodak tri-x. So, a more concentrated K dichromate sol may help heaps with the results.

i'll post the results in a couple of weeks, but great film. It looks a lot (as suggested by other member) like the film used in the 'cranes are flying' from Kalatazov

Using Labview, a cheap data acquisition card (e.g. a USB 6008 from national instruments: http://sine.ni.com/nips/cds/view/p/lang/en/nid/14604 150USD) it is easy to record sound and the camera shooting speed (frames per second) in a laptop and easily change the sound file to match the post synchronization of sound and picture.

Screenshot: http://bp3.blogger.com/_YV-nMLm2V4E/R9UhWQ...kinorcorder.jpg

I have a Kinor 16SX that generates a 10V starting pulse and 3V pulse with twice the FPS frequency. The idea is to connect the trigger and pilot tone output to the data acquisition card and allow labview to record the pilot tone and the sound simultaneously. Nowing the original shooting frequency, the user can then resample (stretch/compress) the sound file in time according in relation to the original FPS. The program is not quite finished yet and I hope to do the resampling routine soon. I am posting this just to know if I should bother to make it more user friendly and add instructions etc (if there is interest from someone else). Also, Labview is a commercial program and is quite expensive, but if you are in academia, you get a 80% discount in the price. In future, I may do a C version of it but it will be in linux. The labview very-beta version can be found in:

http://www.geocities.com/cineguerrilha_mg/KinorRecorder.zip

The same concept can be applied to other 16mm cams as well as 35mm and s8. The only thing you need is to know how the pilot tone is.

I have been searching to try to find in the literature somewhere a film speed being quoted. I have searched through SMPTE Journals back to the 30's without much luck. The only useful fact I can find is in 'The Condensed Course in Motion Picture Photography' edited by Carl Louis Gregory from 1920. In this book he says that the normal exposure for Eastman B/W negative in sunlight was f4.5 at 1/50th sec.

 

I calculate that this equates to an ASA speed of 3. I believe, and I have to admit I am not a cameraman just a humble film lab technician, that the exposure at 1/50th sec for a 25 ASA film would be f11. So the estimate of 2 - 3 ASA was very accurate.

Brian

I have followed (more or less) a recipe of photography chemistry for a colorblind stock (possibly similar to the stuff they have used in the early 1900), the results are here (I've posted this before):

there was some problems with the film coating as you can see, but just some remarks about the old stocks (as I've been learning recently quite a lot about them):

I have used thiosulphate sensitisation to get around iso 10-15, in the past, they've used 'active' gelatin, which generally meant unpredictable sensitivity. Also, the color sensitisation was also studied in the early 1900's. People have applied different dyes to silver halide crystals to get greater sensitivity to colors rather than blue and UV and that is documented since the late 1800's, but I guess the success came after the turning of the century.

Orwo UN-54 is very fine and if you develop it as reversal it is even finer:

http://www.filmotec.de/English_Site/Produc..._e/un_54_e.html

I have used it recently and it's very nice, in my opinion, right amount of contrast, strong blacks, worth considering. It can be purchased from wittner kino in germany or dancan international for several countries:

http://www.dancan.com/

or from:

Mr. Ekkehart Sachtler

Midridge Imaging Supplies

10 Franklin Ave. Midland Park

New Jersey USA-07 432

USA

phone: +1 - 201 444 9025

fax: +1 - 201 444 8695

mail: vidikon@att.net

(i copied it from their web)

My impression is that Tri-X (160T/200D) reversal is finer grained than Plus-X neg (64T/80D) when projected in 16mm. I'm always unpleasantly surprised at how grainy Plus-X neg is in 16mm whenever I shoot it. The extra silver in the stock does create a certain "bleached" look that can be pleasing, but at the expense of more visible grain. I have not played with underrating the stock however. I have not shot Plus-X reversal, but it's almost certainly finer grained than Plus-X negative because it's a more modern stock and hence has less silver in it.

 

Shooting high contrast subjects will also help you avoid grainy images because most visible grain is in the midtones. I've shot rainy night exteriors on Tri-X reversal that look practically grainless because there were very few midtones in the image to begin with.

Back to DI. Could I get some lab names in US that transfer the HD to 35mm? particularly, does colorlab do it? thanks!

What we've done at times is to print and project film not of all the dailies, but just of a few selects on the first day. This isn't used for post at all, it's just a check for the DP on the cameras and lenses. Usually just a few hundred feet, only one take of any setup.

 

 

 

-- J.S.

Hi all,

just a small doubt about hd telecine. Up to now, I haven't seen any festival taking HD tapes as a final screening format. So, the reason for having a HD transfer is to get a digital intermidiate? Many thanks!

Richardson

Hi all, I keep thinking about converting my kinor to s16 but I love the 6mm lens and this factor alone keeps me away from the conversion. Anyway, is it possible to get an adaptor (i dont't want to change the mount) of PL lens to kinor mount? Many thanks!!!

It looks like they couldn't figure out to squeeze the image to get the anamorphic aspect ratio right though. I found it to distracting to find the movie interesting . . . to bad.

there's a better trailer @ their website

www.laantena.ladoblea.com/

16:9

but if that is not too perfect to u, maybe use black tape in the screen to the the 'right' 'anamorphic' aspect... otherwise, you can get the right aspect in real cinema beauties like Die Hard 4 and Rambo 2...

Hello All,

 

I've got an old Cine K-100 Turret camera. I'm wanting to try to incorporate some sound.

 

Here is what I want to do. Kind of like a music video (film in this case) thing. I want to speed up the audio of a song to be twice as fast and film me lip synching to the song. While doing that I want to film at 48 fps. The idea is that after telecine, I bring the footage in @ 24 fps and the song in at it's normal speed. So the look "should" be a slow motion looking lip-synch to a song at normal speed. The problem I'm having is that I'm not sure that my camera is filming at EXACTLY 48fps (or 24 or 64 for that matter) so when I bring it in to the digital editing system, I can get it close, but now close enough. Hope this all makes sense.

 

Rather then spend a few hundred more $, I'd like to get some input.

 

thanks,

T

 

Also, what are other people in my situation doing for sound?

One idea, if you use math software like matlab... while shooting, record the camera noise, maybe use also a clapboard to announce the beginning of the scene.

The camera noise will have a low-frequency component that tells you exactely the fps, as there is some kind of sound event everytime the cam pulls a frame or close the shutter.

Now, you have an envelope containing the fps info of the camera vs time.

So, then, you can stretch/compress the tempo of your sound file according to the fps vs time of the shutter.

As mentioned at the Electro Logic homepage, I am responsible for the K3 - Kit. I will try to answer all questions related to this topic. If You for some reason would like to get in contact with Lasse Madsen, please email him.

 

We used the standard 17-69mm lense for the demo clip and it was on Ektachrome 100D (Reversal). Regarding the noise, we have measured on both the sprigloaded and with the kit. Result was 53 dBA, measured at a distance of 2 meter in a "lively" room with no carpets on. Hope this will satisfy Your questions.

 

Regards Tommy Madsen.

what about single frame? cheers

Tim ? downloaded a manual and will probably get the Bolex Bible. I also found JK Camera. I'll get in touch to see if they do overhauls in addition to super 16 conversions.

 

Hal ? I'm game to construct a charger with enough instructions, but I think the battery is probably dust. Is there any reason I couldn't just build a battery pack with a couple of ni-cad batteries and charge them on a wall charger? Worked with my Beaulieu Super-8... I'd have to solder a new cable but that's not too hard if I can find the right connectors...

 

Thanks,

 

Kurt.

if the bat is also from the 80's it probably will not work. get some new Ni metal cells, much nicer than Cd. Also, I bought from ebay an 'universal charger' for 20 dollars and work as a beauty.

I've came upon a new argentinian film 'La Antena' (the aerial in eng.). Just for curiosity, it was shot in super 16mm and it is a silent film. It seems a celebration of german impressionism with some Dovzhenko spicing. Haven't seen yet but, for the 16mm'er, it would be good to check it out

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0454065/

and here is the trailer:

go for it... what is 45$ when dealing with memory treasures... Also, it's just 3 years... Let me tell you a story, i've got a 16mm camera from ebay with some kind of black and white film inside. Just out of curiosity I process it and it was a orwo stock probably from the 70's. The image was bad but visible. Off course I cannot guarantee yours but it's likely that you will get stuff out of it.

Hi all,

I just bought a 16mm editing table (steenbeck) with 2 mag channels and I am planning to interface the sound tracks with a custom made comp software. I've never used a table so I'm gathering info.

Would anyone know a good book to start with? Cheers and Happy New Year!