Michael Peploe

You know I realize that these things are still in the deveolpment stage. I know that RED has major DP's that they are consulting with too. (Maybe thats the problem. Slightly joking)), I know nothing is finalized. I know the system is modular. But RED keeps saying that they are listening. You show a picture though that is a radical departure in my opinion of the direction you were going with your first pics which are not on your site anymore. I just wanted to make sure you hadn't abandoned the idea of a simple configuration for hand holding the thing, putting it on your shoulder and that there is onboard internal recording and battery placement. Can that be answered now? I personally don't want a system where I have to connect wires to external stoarge and power items. I don't want to spend time setting up and counterbalancing a shoulder rig. As options, yes. I never had to do it with an SR and I don't want to do it with RED. Thats all. The fact that you are stripping weight is fantastic. The lighter the better. And how about calling D.A. Pennebaker, Frederick Wiseman,or Albert Maysles for their ideas if you haven't already. They have been around long enough and outside the Hollywood system. Indie filmmakers of experience who could really offer some great input.They've lived with cameras on their shoulders.

You know I realize that these things are still in the deveolpment stage. I know that RED has major DP's that they are consulting with too. (Maybe thats the problem. Slightly joking)), I know nothing is finalized. I know the system is modular. RED keeps saying that they are listening. You show a picture though that is a radical departure in my opinion of the direction you were going with your first pics which are not on your site anymore. I just wanted to make sure you hadn't abandoned the idea of a simple configuration for hand holding the thing, putting it on your shoulder and that there is onboard internal recording and battery placement. Can that be answered now? I personally don't want a system where I have to connect wires to external stoarge and power items. I don't want to spend time setting up and counterbalancing a shoulder rig. As options, yes. I never had to do it with an SR and I don't want to do it with RED. Thats all. The fact that you are stripping weight is fantastic. The lighter the better. And how about calling D.A. Pennebaker, or Albert Maysles for their ideas if you haven't already. They have been around long enough and outside the Hollywood system. Indie filmmakers of experience who could really offer some great input.They've lived with cameras on their shoulders.

Yeah that was a might harsh. The money quote wasn't written to impress but relevant info to my experience regarding this topic I thought was being questioned in previous posts. I live in two film worlds. You say that you're a director of photography and on your sets operators setup the camera and grips move lights. I hope that was a typo and not your lack of understanding of crew positions. And for sure you don't want to be on a union set thinking like that. You should feel fortunate to have that size crew too. Others aren't as fortunate. You're description of your setup maybe because its your only experience but some of us have to go from room to car to hallway to dolly back to car and you've got three hours to get all your shots and the car has to be leave in 10 minutes and you're the operater/DP/ gaffer/ elctrician/grip and oh man the matte box zoom you've got on is way to big and crowded for the car shots so you gotta go and change all that out yourself because the AC is busy disengaging all the wiring and stuff ffrom the RED Rail. Oh and the hard drive is filled up too. 5 minutes? And as Brian said , documetary work hindered by time could be a nightmare. It isn't as black and white as you'd like to make it out to be, unless your only experience is as black and white. Lets end this. For those that aren't completely happy with the rail sytem lets be productive helping RED with suggestions of different camera rigs for the independent, small crew, little money filmmakers whether this current version can be modified for it or not. Suggest before they finalize. They say they are listening so suggest away.

You just made my point man. The IIc was made as an MOS camera. It wasn't designed to do filming with sound. So that person you saw using a blimped IIc was filming with it because of budget constraints and it turned around and bit him in the ass with all the loss of time he used up when he had to change setups. The RED designed as it is will cost you time. Its fine to believe in all those wonderful romantic ideals like spirit are enough to get you through but thats not the whole story when you need to get the coverage you need in a limited amount of time. And what filmmaker wouldn't want more time. The right tool would have given the IIc guy more time for sure. I want to also remind you, if you remember, the first mockups of the RED camera they had on their website. It showed a small camera body with what looked like slots that accepted storage devices and a battery. They also had simple attachments where you could hand hold the camera. They were faulty in design because of what looked to me like balance issues and there was still no way to shoulder mount the thing. The lack of an EVF was also an issue for shoulder mounting. But I thought they were going in the right direction, give em time I said. So now the storage and battery are external to counterbalnce the camera with a rail sysytem and cage that accepts the EVF. If you look at the design it looks like the rail system is three tmes the size of the body. The sensor may be great but how you use the camera is important too. For 17K what you are basically getting in the RED is a sensor in a housing, thats it, and using it in a practical way is looking like it s gonna cost 2x to 3x or maybe 4x more. For indie filmmakers it seems to me that cameras that exist today, that shoot quality images are more affordable and practical like auto iris and auto focus which the RED does not give you. For me it puts to rest the idead that RED is gonna kill the big boy companies. For the guys with tons of money and time the RED works fine. Unless of course , I hope they come up with a better design. And lets be honest who doesn't believe that the RED 2 will better designed because this looks rushed.

I already stated I work 35mm films all the time. I know how things work. Yeah 150 million dollar films too. I'm also a indie filmmaker. Any camera made today for indie movie work you can basically pick up load a tape or mag put it on your shoulder and start shooting. In 16mm more depth of field gives you the abilty to be a one man shooter. Remember those great Maysles films all shot on 16mm. By them. They did everything. Thats indie filmmaking. Their not going to spend half an hour dismantling something. You need to move man. I guess you really have no clue. The Red is a great concept camera but right now its not a pratilcle indie camera the way they designed it. Seems now if you want to record to their hard drives its attached by cable as an extension. Try doing car shots with the vibration that will mess up that drive. Oh okay I'll get the red flash but that for sure is going to cost a fortune.Go make a movie pal and see what time and little money does to the way you work. I bet you're the type that be screaming for the next setup. I'm done.

Nish my friend , what do you do? how do you shoot, what kind of budgets do you have. Explain to this lost soul how YOU are going to use the camera and in what situations. I'd really like to know.Or should I just bow down to your fanboydom and accept it cause the sensors cool man.

I agree they are constantly revising thats why I'm posting. Giving feedback. I'm almost sure 3rd parties will develop for the cam but who knows when those will come. When the camera ships seems only the red rails will work and I strongly hope its drasctically re-modified I remember the first rigs they had that aren't on the website anymore. Seems those , the red handles especially, although they needed work, were going in the right direction. This new rail thing is a monstrosity compared to those.

I know what 35mm production is like. i work it most every day.They pushed this as an indie cam though. I was hoping to have that near quality in a functional 7lb package but now I don't think its possible. Needed items: shoulder mount that is more functional, lenses, storage, EVF are just the basics. You maybe in the $26k area now just for those things. You can buy now from the major companies quality cams with auto lens features the RED does not have for under that amount if you are an indie. Like you said we may have seen the truth about the 17k pricepoint. Seems the only thing they got right is the sensor. And we haven't seen what the compressed version of the image looks like yet.

I was really excited about this camera and what they could do with design but after seeing the red rail I'm starting to believe that the big camera companies were right in their designs. The new Red rail system shows the inherent weakness in the RED design and I am confused as to how to fix it. The rail system they introduced today seems so cumbersome. It'll take you an hour to disassemble for another rig setup. I know this a work in progress and I hope the red team goes back to the drawing board. The new setup looks like it was slapped together . Its ugly, obtrusive, and with all the attachments connected a pain to setup. This was supposed to be an indi filmmakers cam but it looks more and more like a major studio camera where theres more time to setup and heavier dollys to accomodate it.. Can anyone imagine a run and gun with this? For me this has exposed the problems of trying to build a camera in a year. They got the sensor right but the design looks thought up in a rush. I'd tell red to give it another year. I was thinking of putting a reservation in but this has made me step back and evaluate other cams instead. $17500 is for a chip housed in a small body but in order to use it someone has to figure out a support system that is functionial. Maybe REd 2 will get it right. I just had a thought maybe others can expand on. How about a support system where you can slide the small REd body in to. This support would have a more streamlined outerbody for mounting but none of the hardware would be attached to the sensor housing. Gotta put the cam on a car rig. Slide it out and mount to car or crane or whatever. Red I hope you're listening. You've got a major problem shoulder mounting this cam for the indie, ENG market.

Hear Hear! androbot

No, I think if you go back to the first page of this post you will see Jim Murdochs first response is a legitimate technical question with a healthy dose of skepticism, which is his right based on knowledge and which was not answered by Mr. Jannard. Why? Go further through the posts and you find him being attacked for his skepticism and the posts degenerate to infantile teeth kicking responses. So it would be skeptic first, a**h**le second. I'll ask again Mr. Jannard, because I'm on the RED train, whether it lives up to the hype or not, except its the one that lets every opinion on, and because you're a big boy, to join in on this board embrace the skeptics and answer the questions with a smile even though you might not like the response. I know it might be easier to have the Mike Curtis', and the dvxusers do the hype for you but those sites stroke you without question, (I've noticed such massive brown nosing its embarassing), how about making this the one place where your feet are held to the fire by the Murdochs. I think you can take it. Maybe its too much to ask in todays corporate world for more openess instead of marketing. You know what they say, the best revenge is living well. Theres nothing for you to lose, you've already won.

I simply can't understand why there's this animosity towards Jim. I appreciate his skepticism and have a problem with people writing about kicking teeth in because he speaks his mind. Why does everyone have to follow in lock step. Like all things differing opinions expand the dialogue and I wonder why Jannard hasn't embraced the skepticism instead of writing personal emails to him teling him not to come to the booth. Come on Jim tell us why Jim is wrong.Engage instead of playing this marketing game of yours. If you don't want to talk to Murdoch send in the troops to explain for you. But alas I think its the marketing game you're relying on, sitting back wringing your hands and smiling at all the disruption you've created. Look whats happened here in the US with one party rule. We need the skeptics. I hope Red succeeds and I think Murdoch does too but right now there is no balance. I appreciate your efforts Jim Murdoch. Keep it up because I'm sick of the one sided comic con dreamers ruling the world.