jan von krogh

4000 screens to go digital alone @ christie... within the next 18 months... http://www.carmikedigital.com/ http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_...17/ai_n15693886 agreed. on the other hand, image quality is something which always added to a movie success... ... right now, a soccer doc is #1 on the german cinemas... its DV...

please once and for all - can we restrain from using wikipedia and photopro today level generalisations? a) how you weight the GRB-balance is choice of the design team, and red had their own sensor designed. B) you might have hear of pattern diffusion and other rather high-tech appoaches of the early 90ties. as everybody doesn´t know, we might also suppose that a totally stupid design team -might- have opted to not use static patterns? c) as you describe: ... and one should mention as well, that FILM has usually 3 layers which usually BELOW each other which usually leads to, ok... you have got the idea i suppose. wrong. this only depends on HOW you tune the dealiasing. you can go for sharp, you can go for velvet, you can go for... thats design decision. the red has FPGA which do bayer etc in RT, btw how do you suppose the RT HD_SDI should work without? what you misunderstand here is that there is redcine, an application which allows to customize parameters when decoding the raw later on - if you wish so. we, that is for sure, will often use the hd-sdi and go directly to hdcam or hdcam sr. David Stump, Warner Bros, Peter Jackson, Otto Nemenz, David Fincher...... http://www.cinematography.com/forum2004/in...mp;#entry136287 they plan prototypes ~30 days, delivery 90-120 days for the cameras for the first 1000s orders. if they can do that, my 2 reds are booked out together with some of our zeiss & angenieuxs...

wrong question - correct question would be - what happens if a monopoly for chemical (arri) and digital (sony) top grade cameras has over one decade to dictate the market. as you might have noticed, >10 MP CMOS sensor cameras can be bought for <1000-3000$ from nikon, canon, sony... CMOS design and bayer-filtering (which has evolved quite a bit over mr. bayers first algorithms of the 70ties) have come a long way in the recent 30 years. simply put: a 12MP / 5k physical res chip (like reds sensor) easily handles 4k. depending what you buy, taht would be: 1st) redflash. pure RAM memory. rather costy, but rather fast as well. 2nd) disk-ARRAYS 3hrd) redcode - datareduced, but waveletbasing quality onto a single drive. 4th) HD_SDI, dual as it seems. pick your flavour of 1080 recording solutions. good enough for james cameron, george lucas, mel gibson, david fincher, michael mann, certainly not good enough to some of the regular trolls in this forum. correct approach to monitor in post would be: http://www.dcinematoday.com/dc/pr.aspx?newsID=648 we here will probably stay with 2K projection. on set the ibm panels you´ve mentioned could be good choices, but indeed there ae several 4k panel manufacturers - not only for radiology, millitary etc. however, if you come from a film background: then you should know, that nobody needs on-set monitoring as the dp & focuspuller probably have it always right. without sarcasm: you can even use a 1080p display (like the one i am writing this post on right now) and zoom in, if you want to benefit from the digital era instead of waiting for dailies. Yes, no, no. The sensor is RED design, if they outsource the production (i would do that) or do it inhouse is a decision jim jannard has to take. however, its red intellectual property. there are lots of people who are in the loop and still refuse to understand, so relax.

if they can keep within their schedule... anyone here who was sceptical? i was. http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=7...amp;postcount=1

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the D20's rental-only? rental only for now. we always wanted to buy @arri. now we have 2 reds on order. The number that exist are irrelevant - the question is how many productions per year are using them. very few. honestly besides commercial not a single full feature i would know of. sony 1920*1080p hdcam/hdcam sr/panavision oem are the undisputed market leaders as of now, followed by GV viper. superman, sin city, star wars, sky captain etc are sony & panavision. zodiac, miami vice/collateral etc are GV. ARRI hasn´t had any successful blockbuster until now, that is with digital technology. in chemical technology however, they are undisputed #1 for sales. on the other hand, sony has >27.000 cinealta units sold since 2000. i would be curious - how many sales arri camera dept had in that timeframe. If Arri only needs 20 to meet the demand, then why should they build more? irrelevant, maybe even wrong question. why arri wasn´t able to raise demand for over 1000 units (as red is), designs a higher res sensor (as red did) and then sells >1000 to the demand is indeed the question arris management should answer to its stockholders.

if we are interested in co-producing a movie, we usually offer 35mm & cinealta cameras, lenses, on-line edit, DI/grade and some more things. certainly never for free, but we always try to make a non-deniable deal for both sides. however, that is if you are in Europe, and given the fact that you are going with red (and our 2 reds seem to be booked once, or if, they show up here) i wouldn´t recommend you camera rental as a co-production. also, the 35mm neg, lab & scan will easily cost you more than the red camera and a decent amount of drives. however we could have zeiss primesets and angenieux zooms available in your shooting timeframe... if that is something you might be interested in just leave a PM here. 100% yes - typical starter indy mistake. blair witch project is a good example how it COULD be done, sonderberg, m. moore, rodriguez & von trier and heck yes, even lucas considers himself an independent filmmaker, they are some more advanced proofs of the power of good indy marketing. ps. is it indie or indy in english slang?

Häakon, the poster you have answered to claims that the ARRI D20 would have less than 1K color resolution. That is, if you are following his, it seems so, wikipedia-basing, however outdated knowledge of digital image processing, digital interpolators, de-bayer filtering etc. He wrote: It's a 2K camera at best. (regarding red) so, i would recommend to not overuse logic and facts when replying him, something i have learned in the last week. however, regarding your post, i agree.

i cant speak about varicam (were cinealta/35-house and upcoming red) we had recently a sony 750 rented out to a horror-fullfeature - they were shooting in the woods, - degrees celsius to +40 celsius in minutes, sun, condensation, generally everything humid. camera had moisture alarm 2 times. we gave the usual tip: use raincoat with lots of "the bagged stuff you get with new electronics which absorbs humidity & fluids"... i don´t know the english word for it, so please forvige me using the descriptive name... fixed it for them, should work for you. method b would be a lowprice underwater bag with overpressure - they are intended for underwater shooting in low depths (1-4 meters) and don´t cost a fortune, ~400-900 euros IIRC. makes it a bit harder to access the camera however. heat isn´t an issue with the sony 750, with the panasonic i don´t have experiences.

As You obviously have no idea and education regarding professional digital film processing of the recent 15 years, i recommend some to gain some basic knowledge before posting. http://celco.com/FormatResolutionTable4K.asp might be a starting point to avoid speaking nonsense and mixing personal phantasm with industry standards. 35mm academy 4K@ 1.85 is 3612 X 1952 or 4096 X 2212, depending how you plan the DI. Certainly not, Mr. boddington, certainly not. Not a single one. RED has a backlog of over 1000 orders right now. I doubt that ARRI will be able to catch that, maybe with the 416. The Arri D20 anyhow is <20 rental units after 3 years, so they have over 1% marketshare. However, they won´t take orders for a longer time now.

Mr. Boddington, you were the first or second person i have ever seen banned at dvxuser.com, a community which usually is friendly and open for critic. that they have banned you is a move that i can understand. destructive and offensive posts are rather the exception there. i don´t think that it makes any sense that you blow up your personal vendetta to a us vs. them topic. There is no "us", and no "them", and bad manners are no way to alter that. also, i think 3 or 4, maybe even 5 members here should watch their language. i think it would be in the best interest of this bulletinboard to try to use a more civil language to allow constructive discussion with professional content, something i certainly missed in your recent posts.

you must have had a better model than i :) but then, it was much more exciting back then, with no barbie-burnproof and single speed. 1 Hour of suspense! Will the datarate be enough? Will someone delete a file? will the computer crash? will the power fail? is enough space on the valuable 12 multisessioned CD-R? Btw, we had the Kodak CD-recorder back then, ~12.000 deutschmarks (~6000 euro or so), heavy, big, slow, impressive and everybody had to see "THE DEVICE WHO CAN MAKE CDs!"

Lol, James Cameron (who went digital for "aliens of deep") shot that movie: ABYSS. the hero dives in a gliding submarine to the bottom of the sea to discover new life and civilisations :)

finally something we can agree on. big questionmark. i suppose 2007 (where demand will exceed available reds HIGHLY for sure) = red will be overpriced. from there one, the usual party begins, as always when digital killerproducts (IF red delives as the design specs promise) begin to change an industry, there will be interesting changes in pricestructures. when DV took on beta, NLE on Steenbeck, VFX softwarecompositing on quantel paintbox, video on film in ENG, wordprocessing to typewriter, internet on telex, laserprinter desktoppublishing on classic layout, DAW on mutitrack audio, DTS/DD on mono/stereo cinematic sound, CD/LP, DVD/VHS the list is sooo long. always some grandmasters go belly up and some new kids in town. but the transition will, even if red fullfills more AND delivers ~5000 cameras ~2010, be not overnight, rather slow. however, angenieux optimos zooms, just one example, are complety sold out, minimum one year delivery...

yeah, i was only referring to the digital cinecams. arri 35 mm is great and you can buy it. D20 still has some issues and they won´t sell it for at least one year - thats what arri told me @ IBC.

yes and no. they want ~1 week of testshooting worth to decide if they will be leading of bleeding edge with red. one of the dops has ordered a camera himself and they talked... on the one movie (martial arts action) i can see why they want it (120p), but especially the doc.... i recommended them hdcam for the doc, however. yes, i even insisted on the tests - including postworkflow. if youre betting $.$$$.$$$ bad surprises aren´t welcome. however, i doubt that (shooting is starting may) that we will have the reds ready for rental by then, so i think the problem might be theoretical. i want to use the 2 REDs in -OUR- productions to learn to understand all details before giving them to rental, however, if they insist i won´t refuse (and certainly having a spare hdcam in reserve)

PS: lol, something went really wrong with the quote feature of this post :)

deleted as quote features goes big bogus on this browser :)

yeah, we have negotiations with 2 fullfeatures & 1 doc for mid-late 2007 who want to go red if available. 1 instead of 35mm, 2 instead of cinealta. all are b-budget. i am not certain. the body (after the first peak in demand) will be less expensive than a typical arri/sony. however, as we have integrated post etc i suppose more service there and also i expect that the typical 30-60 days shooting * 5-8 / year schematic we see per camera will be somewhat more outbooked. also, the HDV & DV & broadcast rental houses charge -sick- price for the hvx & jvc hdc.... the hvx is going ~200/day here in berlin, and the ps pro 35 is also overpriced IMHO. so i suppose we will fish in that pond a little bit as well. then - usually we have lot of unrented 35/16 glass, as we have a choice here. usually 50-75% HD glass and 25-50% 35/16 glass in use. I suppose that besides the regular clients budget-style red-clients will show up which would be excited to rent zeiss 35 / s16 primes pr even sets of them. cinealta however has its niche of its own anyhow, i am rather interested in seing how 35mm digital / 35mm chemical will be balanced. and finally, rental is just one part. we are a studio, we produce, we have inhouse grade/di and digital vs. film is much cheaper if you own and know HOW to do it. As a businessman, the question is not if i can stop that development. if i don´t offer red, you can bet that LUDWIG (he has 5 on order) would be happily make the business in berlin :) so its better to take away the biz instead of having it taken away. important to remember this in times of transition. and finally, i don´t know this exactly, however i wouldn´t wonder if red will need until 2008 to deliver all preorders, and i think the 2007 rental market will be quite funny, that is, IF they deliver in early 2007, what i still can´t imagine how they can do it. btw orders >800, final number not known as of yet, but people with ~850 etc are showing up over at dvxuser.

the original poster was seeing depth and spoke about sculpted look in optochemical film, so its pretty hard to use a valid analogy, as the reference is false in itself already. I pointed out, that, when digital daw lunched the multitrack analogue many analogue fans (who are mostly digital today anyhow) also bailed out to esoterical criteria as "the space in the sound is much deeper". heck, they even discussed the "sound" of empty cd-rs back then, even if they were 100% dataidentical after being burned. ok, back then a cd-recorder was ~5-8.000 and burnt 30$ CD-R frisbees...

in my experience, higher resolution with stronger datareduction -looks- better, but, once in colorcorrection or VFX the missing details will show up miuch quicker than in the unreduced lower resolution. choice of two evils. however, wavelet basing reduction (i suppose red is using wavelet by the look, but i am not certain) is "milder" in comparision to the hardcore quantisation in jpeg when you push it through correction.

1st) Digital HD 1080p and 2K are Hollywood A-Budget blockbuster-tools. zodiac, superman, miami vice, 2 brothers, starwars, click, Sin City etc. 2nd) Digital HD 1080p and 2K are Indie, experimental and doc C/B-Budget blockbuster-tools. sky captain, bowling for columbine, manderlay/dogville, aliens of the deep etc. so that part of the discussion is over anyhow. film vs. digital is no longer a debate, its coexistence is production reality since years - and the audience loves both. So, why the "hype". Actually it isn´t a hype. Every filmmaker has to master the technical challenges. The typical creative choices and options cinematographers wish in their cameras, but don´t get them all in one camera right now, are: - 2/3, 16 and 35 DOF, depending on what type of shot you want to do. shallow DOF for drama, deep DOF for documentary. the red camera will do exactly this. - uncompressed or datareduced, depending on what type of shot you want to do. uncompressed for VFX cinematic, datareduced for the pitch & longform doc... the red camera will do exactly this. - full studio setup or compact lightweight. depending on what type of shot you want to do. heavy long zoom, 2 assistance monitors & vector/wave, tons of follow/remote focus etc for the studio. redcage/rail. only body & prime lens: underwater, steady, run n gun etc. the red camera will do exactly this. - access the lenses you have in house (if you are in business a little bit longer that would be 35/16) the red camera will do exactly this. the acutal HD-cams besides the D20 all need new glass. that is HIGHLY expensive, we bought 2 angenieux 2/3 for our Sony HDCAM which each are ~35K. We have 35 Zeiss primes and 35mm Angenieux Zooms anyhow - with red we wouldn´t have had to spendt the additional 70K. - all framerates, incl. overcranking. there are many digital highspeedcameras, but the one camera for >95% of the speeds paradigm of film is/was better. red is at 120p/2k. - "i want to buy, topquality do i need to bet the house." a solid sony setup will be for body and peripherals ~80-100.000, excluding lenses etc. we have our arri 35 and sony hdcam and believe me, i planned these investments for years. if i would have had the choice, i would rather have bought 4 reds and kept the other 100.000. - camcorder and wired studio setup. depending on what type of shot you want to do. most digital cams are on or the other, or require additional gear at least like Venom or HDCAM SR or discrecorder. red can do both. - 2K is good and the mayority of the movies, but 4k gives you reserves in post and is futureproof, if the producers want to pay it. to aquire in 4k and still have the possibilty to go a 2K post/DI/VFX pipeline is great. The other digital 2K or 4k cameras are 2k or 4k centric. - All resolutions, PAL-4K. Good for the fast job in-between. You dont want a 4k "making-of" camera editorial. and TV jobs can generate some money often enough. - RAW, RGB, YUV - all 3 formats can be required, and most RAW cameras (actually all i am aware of) switch their monitoring if in RAW. - Studios & rental want to buy. Arri & Panavision don´t sell their camera, Dalsa i don´t know. - a manufacturer who listens. I like Sony - they have good service, excellent products - but you will hardly be able to get feature request to developers and if you meet one at IBC/NAB, they aren´t allowed to speak open. - outstanding imagequality. there are many many creative, commercial, technological and ergonomic points to add. however, the illusion that the red is mainly attracting indies isn´t reality, even if it might seem so on some internetforum. the camera design -if it materialises as they plan- is simply a solution t many different needs, requirement and artistic wishes. Also, the shortcomings or compromises or decisions panavision, sony and arri require you to have are mostly resolved in REDs design. Besides us, and we have many $$$.$$$ in cameras, lenses etc, i know of several ueber-rental houses who have $$.$$$.$$$ in cameras who ordered the maximum of 5 cameras. The same is true for several hip top- directors & dops. RED could cost 200.000, and i would be highly interested, as many others as well. i don´t feel threathened by red. ok it will devalue our hdcam and 35mm cams in the long run. but especially the hdcam has its niche and, more important, i suppose our movies will look better and will be easier to shoot when red, hopefully, reaches their design goals.

very good posts mr. kenny. my company is a hybrid of both worlds if you want so. we have film and we have digital. 35mm and HDCAM. we are used to all the different techniques. over 15 years ago, for the first time, we had to blend both worlds. we coproduced an animation short with a, lets say rather improvised, motion control. we shot PAL, with a tuned hitachi betacam (the hitachi rep was quite confused why we wanted to have the camerahead transformed to 25p camera back then), as it was meant for television anyhow and we wanted some digital touch ups (claymotion). we recorded the animations to a discrecorder. then, ~75% of the job done (2 months of shooting) it turns out that we have to shoot on film due to some contracts nobody was aware of. telephone. later on we then decided to shoot the 20´monitor with a 35mm stopmotioncamera.... premiere. one of the finance guys congratulates and tells me "i have heard you guys planned to shoot on beta, see, was good that we did it on 35mm. interesting look by the way, its so rough!". i will never forget that moment, it really opened my eyes. years later i confessed to the main producer... and he laughed as he already knew. its all about art and business - the tools are just tools, what counts is a strong vision, a good story, how you archieve this is secondary. and i have seen the digital/analogue transition 3 times now... graphics, music and still photo are already converted here. its an interesting "deja vu".

i exaclty understood what you were saying.... maybe because english is my third language and we share the crosslingual advanced freestyle grammar...

lol. elaborate please. religious autosugestion or what do you think might be the reason? is the light travelling different if it knows that it won´t hit chemicals? its even getting better... now tell THAT to a colorist or VFX supervisor... but ok, HARD SCIENCE then... how do you qualify "sculptural"? Is it like "the arri 435 has a DONATELLO FACTOR of 3.5, the aaton 35III however has the RODIN CLOSURE of 2.2, while panavision genesis, arri d20, sony 950, red one, dalsa origin, VR phantom 65 indeed only offer a BARLACH SYNC of 1.2? being on that topic: do you recommend that we change the 24bit96khz DAW audio back to multitrack analogue tape? i have heard -exaclty- that 3D nonsense in that context before.

several advantages, mr. boddington, several. first: the timespan one is ahead of the competition. that if quite important for rental business. if the other one can´t rent out the gear and can´t buy it as well, you take the business and the money away from him. therefore you earn the camera back faster. that attracts the business people, and this is why several of the worlds top-rental shops have maximum orders. But you might not be interest in business, would you? second: red will, if it materializes as planned, be a superior camera compared to most offerings on the market today and tomorrow. we have directors and dops who are asking us if their upcoming productions already could be shifted on the red. that might have its source in the "best of both worlds" approach you find in the red design, and the creative minds interest in exploiting these possibilities. can you say lightweight 35mm 4K steadycam with soundsync and on set checkup of the footage without thinking about footage, cost and reload issues? so, that makes the creative ones interested. But you would not be interested in creativity and using the best gear ASAP, would you? third: its non risk, the deposit is refundable. Mr. Boddington, as you told us all this is fraud, jannard hasn´t a clue what he is doing, there is no sensor etc. just lean back and enjoy. my orders btw came in after i saw the image projected on 4k and some dozens feet wide and examined the prototype, from which the serial red will be different in many aspects. deposits for the orders can be taken back before delivery btw.