Neil Duffy

Keith and Tom,

Excellent advice about practicing with a basic video camera and a RAW DSLR.

Cool videos Joseph.

The Steadicam Tango is amazing with a 5D. I wonder if they will adopt it to fit a bare bones Epic? I noticed the weight limit was 6 pounds - with 29 pounds put on the operator at this weight.

Did Arri leave out on board RAW recording capabilities on the lower end Alexa?

You probably have seen this, but in case you have not; here's a video overview of the Alexa:

http://vodpod.com/watch/3301853-arri-alexa...era-thefilmbook

Sorry, I didn't see the HDR discussion below. This thread probably belongs there.

Best

On RedUser Red says they are implementing HDR in the Epic. My limited understanding of this, is that they will implement it in such a way as to create more realistic images.

Any thoughts or experience with HDR?

Thanks in advance.

I agree with Tom, this rumor is highly unlikely. It would be cool, though.

Thanks for your response.

First, I should have put a question mark in the title. Sorry about that. It was too late to edit it. Someday I will upgrade my membership.

As for the lenses, the discussion at Canonrumors.com is about the DSLR's. Not the current small lenses for prosumer video cameras. From my reading of the discussion, these could be high quality Full Frame Canon still lenses that Canon would modify for digital cinema - specifically for the Mark II 5D. (According to the same site, the 5D is due for a firmware upgrade that will add 24P and other cinema features).

The Red Primes look amazing. Maybe Canon wants to compete in that market.

CanonRumors.com has a discussion about Canon adapting some of their still lenses to accommodate the new HD video functionality on their DSLR's.

Anybody hear anything about this? Will these lenses be FF and work on the 5D? Could we use these on the upcoming 6k Epic?

On that note, I can't say I'm too impressed with this new long-winded

"Cinematography Forums > Cameras and Formats > HD > Red" folder system tht was recently adopted here.

Judging by the number of Red-specific questions that now seem to scattered through this forum's folders, I think a lot of new visitors are unaware that there even is a "Red" folder.

Good point. It took a while to find this forum when they changed it from being listed on the front page. I wish it would be listed more clearly in the Forums section.

Jim,

Keep posting here. We are happy owners of two RED's. But I go here first to learn about opinions of RED. This site attracts some extremely knowledgeable people who share their experiences with RED. Sometimes, they get too critical. But, overall, I learn more here about RED than from any other site.

Neil

Any idea who makes these lenses? :unsure:

The photos on Red User look promising. Are Jan's lenses the same ones?

You are half right. CMOS does "scan" the sensor instead of capture the scene at one instant. And there were skew issues with Peter Jackson footage shot on the 1st prototypes "Boris" and "Natasha" two years ago.

 

All CMOS are not the same. What matters is the read-reset time. The RED prototypes had a very slow (like most CMOS sensors) read-reset time (skew). We have been able to speed up that time dramatically since then. No one complains about the skew on the new firmware builds. They are now 3.5 times faster than they were. And the next generation, Scarlet and Epic, are even faster. About the same as a current film camera. Technically there is still skew in a film camera, just not enough to warrant a discussion. The N90 and 5D II have CMOS sensors that still have a very slow read-reset time... 3-4 times slower than a current RED ONE. That is why there is a LOT more skew when shooting motion with those two.

 

Read-reset times are independent of frame rates. Scanning a CMOS sensor is similar to a mechanical shutter "wiping" the film if the read-reset times are fast enough. Both of these have a "look" that is not the same as a global shutter. There is a "feel" to this wipe/scan time. Most people like it. Too slow read-reset time gives a bunch of skew... which is obviously not good.

 

The biggest problem with the discussion of CMOS sensors is that most people want to lump them all together. There are a million differences between them all, from pixel design, pixel size, A/D conversion, read-rest times, etc. Future discussions about CMOS will hopefully be more detailed, because the details matter. Sweeping generalizations don't work.

 

Jim

Jim, thanks for your very informative response. I confess, I have not seen footage from the latest builds. Also, I was confusing a mechanical shutter with a global shutter.

I saw skew and jello images as an issue on earlier builds, and was curious if there was an easy solution to this. The easiest solution appears to be to make the sensor scan even faster.

I think all cinema cameras are moving to the CMOS sensor. So a discussion of the different types and issues would be real welcome.

By the way, is this the first time that Jim and Keith agree on an issue related to RED? Maybe Phil will join them. :lol:

From what I have seen, there is skew with pans on the RED. It was discussed at the time of the Peter Jackson clip release. The cause of the skew was the way the rolling shutter captured the shot. It did not capture the whole shot at once. Rather it captured like a scan - from top to bottom. During a pan, this caused a sort of bending of the image - as the top part of the image was captured before the bottom part.

This scan is the cause of the skew. Not necessarily the speed of the frame capture. A slow full frame capture would give a blurry image, not skew.

Please correct me if I am wrong. But I have not seen this skew with the Canon cameras in photography mode (in video tap mode I have seen it). I believe the Canon and Nikon cameras, when they are in photography mode, are using mechanical shutter, and don't have skew. The image might be blurry if the capture is slow. But no skew.

I am wondering if there is an inexpensive solution to this. A mechanical shutter, ala the Viper, might work. But, the chip would still have to all "on" when the shutter is open. And then reset its scan when the shutter is closed. That would have to be a very fast chip. :D

Thanks Jim, Keith and Igor for the info. Keith, that was the most concise description of the differences between rolling and mechanical shutters in digital cameras I have read. I never understood it before.

If you are mainly after skew, the Viper approach looks the most cost effective. But skew will probably be less on an issue with EPIC's as they advance.

I noticed that EPIC continues with the rolling shutter. What are the advantages of a mechanical shutter over a rolling shutter? Is it worth the costs? :unsure:

Thanks for the review.

That is a really cool compact camera. Great for filming from a remote control helicopter.

I think David has some excellent points about RED. I think it is an effective tool for shooting most cinematography. It is not all there yet. But it is very promising. And it clearly has taken us in a new direction and has taken digital video out of the prosumer market.

However, I think some of the competitors might come from the still photography world - and their response to the 5D Mark II. And I think FF35 is probably where all this digital cinema is heading. Just my thoughts. ;)

Why would you sell your EVF and LCD? They are both supposed to work with all the future cameras. You might want to upgrade to the 1080P EVF, but that's all I can see.

 

Matthew

I did not know I could upgrade to the 1080P EVF. I thought we had to sell ours, then then buy the new EVF. Same with the LCD. The two cameras we have are a full set up. We rent ours on consignment with a rental house. We should have returned our investment by the release of EPIC. But to rent ours, we need what the renters want. So what I am concerned about is future upgrades and investment.

With regard to the Canon, we bought the cameras for travel videos. Picture quality, especially light and colors, is essential to us. That is why I am intrigued by the Canon. The Canon is not there yet. But looking at some of the images, how far are they from the target. They make millions of these cameras, vs. thousands for RED. They make their own sensors. They make video cameras. They make great lenses.

Cost goes way down when you make millions vs. thousands. This may be why RED is producing still cameras and the Scarlet with the same sensors as the EPIC.

Canon is already there in this market. How hard can it be for them to improve their sensor and processing speed? RED has basically taken the high end video market. And RED is going straight into the still market. So where does this leave Canon and Nikon with their high end still cameras? There is a huge positive response in the digital still market to the new Canon's video capabilities. RED is right in their combo cameras. I think we will see more high end digital imaging hybrids. With better capabilities. All this leads to more competition. RED has to respond.

RED has done a lot to change the industry. And I expect they will respond effectively to the new competition.

Speaking of competition, News.com has a front page article on Canon and the Nikon and how they are transforming digital photography by shooting HD video.

Any thoughts on these cameras.

To be honest it's difficult to feel much sympathy for red camera owners, most of whom are hyperexcitable morons who hang their psychological wellbeing on every word Jannard utters in a pathetic display of neediness, and who couldn't tell overwrought advertising copy from a wet flounder.

 

P

I know who to go to when I need some empathy. :lol:

I am ambivalent. I feel it is better than the Nov. 13 announcement. If you are renting RED cameras, like we are, you are going to need the FF35. My quick math (just an estimate as there are no prices for the accessories) is that you will have to spend at least $22,000 per camera to upgrade. That is if you can sell your EVF and LCD monitor for half what you paid for them.

I am curious what Canon and Nikon are going to do with their high end still cameras. The 1080p mode on the Canon 5D Mk II is a right step. Not quite there, but not too far away either.

I hope RED figures all these changes out. I think they are on the right direction. But the competition will be getting more fierce.

Reduser.net has the Dec. 3 announcement up. RED presents more details, offers higher frame rates (150 at 4k and 350 at 2k on the FF35), and a special price for a S35 package for existing customers.

What are your thoughts on this announcement?

I think it has to due with Nikon's announcement on December 1.

 

Check out this clip of the Canon 5DmkII shot at night in Beijing:

 

http://www.vimeo.com/2327058

 

For comparison, here is a video of Nikon's current D90:

 

http://vimeo.com/1728575

 

The color on the Canon is amazing (I am not a professional here, this is just my opinion). Nikon will probably be announcing a competitor.

Nikon's new camera to be announced on Dec. 1 does not have video capabilities like the Canon 5D Mark II. NikonRumors.com