Michael Olsen

I assume this was taken as a great opportunity for the "Consider the Post Path" lesson. Posting RED (or any other camera) can be a very simple and productive experience if someone takes the time to consider how to do it properly. In this instance, choosing RED with the limitations of those NLEs and an apparent ignorance of REDCINE would make this is very difficult undertaking. Honestly, even if they don't end up using the RED for their project, I still think the problem would make an excellent thought experiment that would be very educational. What post path is necessary to post footage in iMove and/or Window Movie Maker from an HVX? 5dMK2? AF-100? Alexa? RED? Based on that, and other factors, what camera would you choose for a project with a short deadline? For a long deadline? Editing on a laptop? Or a "proper" workstation/cart? There's a lot to discuss about this particular issue. I think it would be unfortunate to just let it die as a problem and not turn it into something beneficial.

So. Now that we've all argued the merits of film and digital... What do people think of Nigel's software? So far I've only seen one real reply.

Well, Epic does offer a clean 1080p feed right out of the brain in addition to the feed used for onboard monitor/EVF. For immediate use, there are popular and proven third-party solutions (e.g., AJA Ki Pro) for recording ProRes off the available feed. In the future, RED has stated a number of times that they want to produce modules that offer realtime encoding (and wireless transmission) of a number of different codecs. H.264 - oddly - was the first mentioned, but all the talk about ProRes insinuates there will be developments in that direction. The camera is also supposed to offer a 1080p RGB recording setting, but I haven't heard much about that lately. So I suppose what I'm saying is that it looks like people who want 5K REDRAW to SSDs and 1080p ProRes simultaneously can get their wish right now. As more modules become available - both the I/O modules and the proxy modules, the options will only increase. As for the necessity of RAW - I think the market is proving that plenty of people are quite happy with 1080p ProRes as acquisition. Alexa, for example, has proven an extremely capable camera for television production. But plenty of people seem to be asking for RAW capability, not just from RED but also from ARRI and Sony (and Canon and Panasonic). It seems to be something that is either in development for current model cameras, or a major feature on next-generation models. Whether or not people will want to use that capability once they have it, I don't know...especially if it's 4K uncompressed RAW. That's a lot of data. I agree, the DVD option is definitely important, but I'm not quite as quick to dismiss it. RED hasn't said that it won't have this capability - they just haven't confirmed that it will. If anything RED is responsive to input from their users - I've started a thread over on REDUSER in the REDRAY section about it, so you (and anyone else who wants this capability) may want to weigh in there.

Frankly, I agree with the need to support DVD, Keith. A $0.50 disc is far cheaper than even a bulk-order 8GB flash drive. I really hope that RED will have a solution for this, and I really hope that it will come in the way of a built-in drive - not an external USB drive. One could (and many have, of course) argued that DVDs are just going to go away. It'll be a digital download that you can either stream over the LAN or put on a reusable thumbdrive and and be done with it - in far less time than burning a DVD. However, as you said, there are definitely times when "disposable media" has its place - and it's advantageous price. Lack of full-resolution output - I assume you are looking for a 5K stream RAW and unprocessed right out of the camera? I know it's off-topic, but why would you personally like that ability? To record in tandem so you end the take with two identical 5K copies of the same footage?

Understandable, Keith. Though it seems like you may have been bitten by the "everything can/will change" clause. The "facts" now, as close as I can see, are as follows: -The RED website has a section under products for "RED Ray". After entering that page the only product listed is "RED Ray Pro™". -The specifications page for RED Ray Pro™ lists the following media: "REDFLASH CF, REDFLASH SSD media Supports USB-2, FireWire 800, e-SATA drive". -There is no mention on any of the pages for any kind of spinning-disk media. My suppositions of possibilities based on those facts are as follows: -RED Ray Pro™ is an early model aimed at professional users, who have options above and beyond a DVD drive and would probably prefer to use rewritable media than burn DVDs. A standard RED RAY will follow for more typical consumer release and include a DVD drive. -RED Ray Pro™ will be the only model made available, but an external DVD drive for playback may be used and connected via USB-2 or FireWire 800. Alternatively, the inputs may be modular, allowing for a user-installable DVD drive module to take the place of, say an SSD reader. -RED has decided not to use DVDs for some reason and instead is pushing forward with the idea of either streaming data, or a solid-state media future. -- Of course, I have no idea which of those scenarios could be true, or even if it will be something else entirely. With RED, I find everything is a "guess in an increasingly correct direction" until products ship. I imagine we'll probably be getting more information at NAB.

This is very true, and that is what I'd expect. Unfortunately, the only bitrate specs RED has discussed are about 4K, so it will be interesting to see what happens at 2K, 1080p, and 720p. And the 20Mb/s figure from RED is supposed to include multichannel audio.

Fair enough - I'll have to ante up for that sustaining member status. It's worth it. And as to fitting the data on discs - are you expecting the Red Ray to play DVD9 discs or Blu-Ray? If so, I don't think it will. Based on the specs available, it looks like the interface will be limited to REDFLASH CF, REDFLASH SSD media USB-2, FireWire 800, and e-SATA drives. Thunderbolt would probably be a welcome addition at this point, but that's beside the point I think... It seems like, though, you are really asking: If 4K runs at 20Mb/s, does 2K run at 10Mb/s? If so, none of my searching can help - I can't find a single definitive reference to that question.

I apologize for the second reply - I can't find the edit button... News from Jan 23, 2011 suggests that Red Ray Pro will be shipping in April. We'll see soon enough!

I think the idea is that RedRay - purportedly - will project a 4K image on a 40ft screen that equals or surpasses DCP quality while using less than 10% of the DCP rate. That magic Red Ray figure being 20 Megabits per second (Mb/s). I'm not sure, of course, as I haven't been able to try for a number of reasons - but I don't think many other codecs can come close to matching that sort of - again, purported - performance. Of course, that's a great idea - I love it! But what matters is what it will actually do when it becomes available for purchase - and at what price. To answer Keith's question - "Where are they now?" I suspect they have been waiting for 4K to become more of a standard. Or at least to be easily visible as a standard. I also assume they have been waiting for the price of 4K display technology to fall, or become more highly integrated. And, as was mentioned, I assume they have also been waiting for component prices to drop somewhat so that they can debut at a reasonable price point. NAB this year sounds as good as any.