Will Montgomery

I agree with zaefod. Going with Kodak brand film will be less expensive and better quality. This will also allow you to choose a better quality lab and telecine facility to go with.

I agree with Zaefod and Mike Crane.

If you are shooting Vision 2 200T or Vision2 500T, buy direct from Kodak, you can rely on their quality control. I have no idea why Pro8mm even sells their own version.

So I guess my question is, what is the point? I know that s8mm can look great and all if that is the look you are going for, but after you have done all of this to ensure the highest quality possible your output options are basically DVD, or a film out. one is super expensive and the other is low res. I know that Blueray might change this equation but at the current time it seems a little like kissing your sister.

Ahh... I used to think this too. Until I did some work at a high-end shop here in Dallas. Even though your final destination might be DVD, the better quality sources you have, the better the final DVD will be. Think about it, if you have to compress files that have already been compressed (and re-compressed probably!) there are all sorts of artifacts that build up and make the final MPEG encoding look weaker than it could. Plus the extra color information is retained until the very last stage producing DVD's that look great.

The more uncompressed you can go, the better the final DVD will look. It really does make a difference.

Years ago i converted it to super 16.

Really? All I've ever heard is that you can't convert a Scoopic... did you do it yourself or have a shop do it?

For a wide angle, your choices are somewhat limited, but the 8mm Peleng is one way to go.

The 16mm Zenit is a good lens and it covers the S16 area if you have that mod. There is little edge distortion with this lens on a K3, compared to the Peleng where its pretty noticable (curved edges). But the Peleng is fun too.

There are five HD tapes formats, excluding HDV.

 

DVCPRO-HD and HDCAM are 8-bit formats mainly designed for camcorders, but HDCAM is also common in post houses because of the number of people who shoot in HDCAM. HDCAM is 8-bit, 3:1:1, highly compressed.

 

HD-D5 is the most common post house HD deck, 10-bit, 4:2:2, and less compressed than HDCAM or DVCPRO-HD. Most movies shot on film doing an HD transfer use HD-D5.

 

HD-D6 Voodoo is rare and hardly used. Uncompressed 10-bit 4:2:2 I think?

 

HDCAM-SR is 10-bit, 4:4:4 or 4:2:2, and very mildly compressed. Highest-quality HD tape format currently.

 

So regular HDCAM is not particularly a good HD tape format to master to, but if you have no choice...

Exactly what I needed... thanks David.

I've seen the costs of HD telecine drop dramatically recently, and would love to do future transfers in the format. I've used Bonolab's uncompressed to hard drive option and was amazed at the quality of the format and what you can do with it (1080P 10-bit uncompressed). The only drawback for me with Bonolabs is their completely neutral transfer; I like a good colorist to help me in that area.

I really like Flying Spot Transfer in Seattle, but the only HD format they offer is HDCAM. Is HDCAM a bad format for a film transfer? I know the compression is different with that format, but if the colorist is good, do I really need uncompressed files for non-commercial work?

I transfer Super 8 and S16 generally.

thank you all of you for your responses and the speed of them, just another question, what is the variable speeds on a k-3, and with an arri bayo mount what selection of lenses might i be able to use as an example?

 

thx

Speed is variable from 8 - 48 fps. It actually might go a little higher than 48 but it sounds like it might explode at 48fps. Very loud. At 48fps the slow-mo effect is very cool. If you're used to video slow-mo you'll be impressed by a real film slow-motion effect. Looks very fluid.

If you don't already have arri lenses then don't bother with it. They can be very expensive and if you're new to film, it might be money better spent on actual film and processing for learning purposes. There are some great M42 lenses out there on eBay pretty cheap. The lens that comes with the camera can be really good too, although I find it a little hard to focus with.

Once you get used to the camera you can always upgrade it if you need to.

I've read that the k-3 can only take daylight spools, can someone explain the full ramifications of this, since i'm not completely sure of the what that means, no tungsten film? no nifght shooting etc etc

All 100' reels are daylight spools, they are just black metal spools with solid sides so light can't get onto the edges of the rolled film. But just because they say "daylight load" doesn't mean you should... anything faster than Kodachrome (including almost all negative stock) should always be loaded in a changing bag or in complete darkness. Its like in the marines when they blindfold you and you have to assemble your M-16 without looking.

It has nothing to do with the tungsten or daylight film... you can use any Motion Picture camera film in 100' loads that Kodak or Fuji makes and its alot of fun trying different stocks.

As everyone has said, K-3's are build like tanks. The cheap fake vynyl-like outer covering can start to come up, but the cameras are pretty solid. Remember, experiment and shoot test reels to make sure you're getting the results you want before you do a major shoot. Its a good idea to have your $200 K-3 checked out by a tech and even upgraded to S-16 (maybe another $250) before you spend all that money on film. Remember, by the time you buy, process and transfer 16mm, $300 might only get you 4 or 5 100' reels.

Direct from Kodak is significantly cheaper on 100ft rolls... last time I checked here are the costs... stock # and price. I have no idea why you wouldn't buy direct. The quality control is excellent and they overnight for around $15.00. If AGI's price included processing then it might make sense and be a good deal. Of course, these Kodak prices are without any student discounts which I've heard are like 20% off.

7218 36.48

7279 35.48

7217 36.48

7205 35.46

7245 32.64

7285 36.64

7222 18.56

7231 18.56

7265 20.59

Kodak's order line:

1-800-621-FILM (3456)

You can also buy Super 8 (and of course 35mm) as well.

I'm pretty sure they recently made a new batch of Kodakchrome 16mm and will probably make some more. The Kodak reps are always surprised when I order it, and even more surprised when they find it... but several reps I've talked to said it may eventually go away but the demise of Super 8 version doesn't mean 16mm is going away immediately.

In the mean time, that EKTACHROME 100D 7285 is a really great stock if you're into projecting your film.

Aren't K100's great? Small form factor, an optical viewfinder that you can actually use, and a very long running time when compared to the Bolex. Plus, as you know, you can slap a reflex finder-equipped Angenieux or Pan Cinor and it becomes a reflex camera about the same size as a large Super-8.

Where can I find a reflex finder? I've seen a few of these on K-100's and I would love to have one for mine. Its a great camera, I'm just not that great at focusing based on distance.

What camera and film stock are you using?

Have you shot film before?

I've always ordered stock directly from Kodak, is there an 800# to order Fuji film? I'd like to try it, but its not really clear where to buy it on their website.

For the S16 upgrade, modifying the viewfinder for S16 frame (many people will tell you this isn't possible, but it is), removing the loop formers, general lube and back focus alignment, I think I spent $500 or so. So yes, think hard before doing it, but having a S16 Reflex camera for under $800 is still a great deal.

What's killing me now is the winding. Shooting 400 to 600 ft in one day makes my arms hurt. :( I've been thinking about a Tobin motor, but then I really get to the point of spending too much money on that camera.

Not to mention the additional m42 lenses I've picked up on eBay.

Kodachrome (yes, even k40) has a great look.

The problem I run into with it is cost. I think Dwayne's charges $32 per 100ft roll to process. Most negative labs charge $14 per roll. And that Vision2 stock is amazing when telecined properly, so it just seems easier to use in general.

I wish I had the time to edit up some Kodakchrome and project it. Now that would be fun, but realistically I know I'll only see the stock on video.

Its always good to check with a geiger counter to make sure it wasn't sitting somewhere in Chernobyl.

If you're not familiar with the camera, I would send it to a tech like Du-All in NYC and have them do the standard check out. Yes, it may cost you more than the camera to do, but then you can be sure the back focus is accurate and the mechanics check out ok.

I'd do the S-16 upgrade at the same time, you can still use it as standard 16 but there will be a little extra width if you want to move to a HD or 16:9 frame.

The majority of 3-week features tend to be crappy genre movies for straight-to-DVD and cable TV, women-in-prison flicks and whatnot.

Not that there's anything wrong with women-in-prison flicks... :D

This forum is a great mix of pro and hobbyist. Topics like this really show what a pro knows.

I'm waiting for my EBAY K3 to arrive ;)

Good luck with that. Mine turned out fine, but I've heard its luck of the draw. Had it modfied to S-16 by Du-All in NYC and its great going to hi-def; but I have to save for a while to afford an hour of hd transfer.

I've got several M42 lenses for it, the Peleng 8mm, Zenitar 16mm and a beautiful 28mm Pentax. All cover the S16 frame great. The stock zoom lens is really good too, but it doesn cover the S16 frame under 24mm or so.

Start working out if you're doing a big shoot, I get indentations in my palm after winding that thing for 2 or 3 100ft reels.

Not to steer the conversation off topic, but curious none the less...

I see their 40T "Chrome" film is for the K14 process. Presuming this is cut down Kodachrome?

Where would one get this processed when Kodak close their doors?

Dwaynes in the US?

Dwayne's will keep processing k14 for a while, there are still alot of Kodachrome Super 8 and 16mm left out there. They have contracts with so many major players (Walmart, Target and Kodak) that they'll have to continue for a while, even after Kodak stops in Switzerland. Plus all the 35mm slide film is processed k-14 and Dwaynes handles that too.

Speaking about Kodachrome, I noticed the 35mm slide version comes in 200 speed and 64 speed. I'm sure speeds don't translate directly to movie film, but I would think there could be a faster Kodakchrome available to cut down... is that possible?

Another interesting point on that 100D is how much an 80A brings down the ISO. From 100 to 25... seems like a big jump.

What a great discussion this one topic has started! Talk about getting people fired up!

I'd love to hear more about a Canon Scoopic modified for Ultra 16... Always thought that would be a Scoopic might be a nice camera for quick shots, more reliable than a K-3 probably and wouldn't kill my hand winding it constantly. Of course no one seems to be able to make a Super 16 mod to a Scoopic so this Ultra thing might give just a little more width for better HD transfers.

It is possible that a Y-Front or Millennium Telecine can handle it. There are very few Y-Fronts around.

This one is at Video Post & Transfer (VPT) in Dallas (http://www.videopost.com/). It does an amazing job, but of course their color correction system and colorist makes all the difference too.

The colorist I work with in Dallas has no problem with Ultra-16. They can see the entire film and then zoom and crop according to what is needed. Super 16, Ultra-16, Super-Duper 16 & Crazy-Wacky 16 are all supported (ok, I made the last 2 up).

She did say in general that Super 16 is slightly easier for her to work with but it really doesn't matter.

Their machine is called a "Y-Front" which I believe is a modified Rank Cintel machine.

I'd love to hear about someone who has a Eyemo 2-perf... might be a neat alternative to inexpensive Super 16 cameras like the K-3.

It sounds like your projects will be shot on film but edited on a computer... probably after you've done a miniDV transfer.

If you are not familiar with film, here are a few things to think about:

1) There are inexpensive 16mm cameras available, the least expensive being "non-reflex" models meaning that you see through the actual lens but through a viewfinder lens. You focus be measuring or appoximating distance and setting the lens from that. These can produce great images but if you're used to miniDV, you may want to take a small step up to a "reflex" model so you can focus through the lens. Inexpensive "reflex" models include the Canon Scoopic & Krasnokorsk-3.

2) Film is expensive... from $18 for 3.5 minutes of b&w (100ft.) to $38 for 3.5 minutes of Kodachrome color (100ft.). This means you need to plan your shots out much more because film is money. Those prices are for the film only, processing runs about $14-$20 per 100ft roll. Then of course, there's the transfer. There are plenty of Telecine options out there but a decent machine & colorist run about $150-$300 an hour (that's not running time, its machine time, each minute film takes 2 to 4 minutes to transfer probably). If you need HD, you can double that range. Say 3.5 minutes to SD miniDV will cost you about $60 or so from start to finish including everything.

3) Just so #2 doesn't discourage you, film looks awesome... if you're used to miniDV footage, you're jaw will drop after you get back some well exposed modern negative film transfered to miniDV. It really does look great.

4) Super 8 isn't really that much cheaper, the film cost can be almost half, but processing and a good transfer are not much less and the quality difference would probably be worth the film cost difference. Super 8 does have some ease of use advantages in loading.

Would the film be likely to be X-Rayed. I hear that they do deep scans of the storage on airplanes these days so if something travels airmail then presumably it will get a big dose?

Regular mail uses commercial flights to move packages, you will probably be ok with FedEx. Call FedEx and ask. Kodak marks boxes well and I haven't had a problem with FedEx yet.