some advise on a 16mm camera

May 29, 2004

I'm new to shooting film. I've been shooting DV for a few years now, but have recently taken interest in shooting film. I'm looking to buy a 16mm camera, but I can't afford anything over $1,000. I don't necessarily require anything too new or too "professional" . I'm consiering a Bolex or Scoopic. My Interests lie in short films and music videos. From what I know, crystal sync would be good, as well as a camera that accepts 400' mags. Any suggestions or advice would be appreciated. If I look at Bolexes, what model would be best?

_steven

May 29, 2004

...ok...missed the thread that's five doors down...Bolex is the general consensus...but what's up with the crystal sync thing?

Mitch Gross · May 29, 2004

If you're interested in getting into 16mm filming, I suggest you pick up a few introductory books such as The 16mm Camera Handbook by Doug Underdaul. There's also a number of other books that people have recommended here and there's a list of some kind in the Book Store or Library link on the front page of this web site. Lots of answers to questions you didn't know to ask.

Crystal sync means the camera runs at precisely the exact speed you wish it to. Not "about" 24 frames per second, but precisely 24 frames per second. This is important if you wish to record sound and not have the audio and visual drift out of alignment after a few seconds, and it is also important when shooting with lights that flicker based on their power sources, such as fluorescents.

Dan Salzmann · May 29, 2004

Bolexes are good cameras (be careful which you get) with 100 ft. loads but I find them awkward with 400ft. loads.

I think a French ACLII is a good starting camera in that it takes Switar C mount primes, can be eventually converted to super16mm , is crystal sync, shoots up to 75 fps and is built like a tank.

Scoopics are great but crystal synced models are rare they only take 100ft loads and can not be converted to super16mm. Great "run and gun" 16mm MOS camera though.

Really consider the necessity of buying rather than renting.

Read this forum and its archives and google like all hell.

Hope this helps.

May 29, 2004

Thanks for the replies. I am on my way to a bookstore after this post, and I will check out the French ACLII. This forum is a great resource.

Phil Rhodes · May 30, 2004

Hi,

This keeps coming up, and it keeps coming down to an Eclair ACL. What exactly are the problems with this camera? There must be SOME at least.

Phil

Mitch Gross · May 30, 2004

Many people consider the ACL a finicky camera. There can be a big difference between individual cameras and some are apparently real lemons. The locking mechanism that holds the mag to the camera is fairly wimpy, and the mags have been known to pop off mid-shot if one has not mounted it properly. The only really good motor is the HD multispeed model that can reach 75 fps. The others will eventually burn out if asked to pull 400' mags. The viewfinders are semi-orientable, meaning that they do not auto-upright the image but instead you need to rotate a ring to level the frame every time you reposition it. Not the biggest issue until you try to do a tilting shot and the image rotates as you tilt the eyepiece with you. There was never an extended eyepiece made for this camera. The Angenieux eyepiece is by far the best viewfinder made for the ACL, much more adjustable and brighter than the original Eclair model or the Kinoptik (yes, there were THREE different viewfinders made for this camera over the years). But the Angenieux tends to yellow with age, although I'm told that there is a chemical correction for this and that lazer brightening can also work wonders for it.

There can be flicker issues with the unique pendulum mirror design (it is incredibly clever and makes the camera so small). There have been mods for this with various upgrades to the cameras. The camera originally came with a lousy Jaeger 4-pin power connector and it was only on the latest in the production run that they went to a 4-pin XLR. Various mounts were devised to stick an onboard battery to the camera, but unfortunately many of them relied on the camera mag for support. Even if the wimpy latch system didn't give, the additional weight was not part of the pressure plate design and could through the backfocus of the camera off (this same problem plagued people who tried to stick 1000' Moviecam Compact mags onto the little Moviecam SL's magnesium frame).

Let's see, anything else? For some dumb reason the mags were initially designed to use A-wind film instead of normal B-wind. The proper film loads just fine, but it's a little counter-intuitive to spool it off the feed side in a direction that appears backwards. The spools themselves do not apply much tension to the film as it takes up, resulting in pretty loose winds on the core. To help with loading/unloading, the core adapters are made with a platter flange that supports the entire roll as you remove it from the mag. Great for loading but treat them very gently because if they are ever bent you'll get a horrid scraping sound as they spin in the mag.

With the various upgrades available from companies like Les Bosher the camera can be pretty sweet. But for not much more money you can get an Aaton which is the next evolution of this camera and perhaps a better investment with greater options. But I do have a spot in my heart for the little ACL and if in decent shape it can shoot wonderful images.

Marty Hamrick · May 30, 2004

I don't think I've ever seen an ACL for the 1000 dollar price range he's talking about.Once you throw in a couple of mags and lenses,the price I've seen is upward around1500 to 2500.

If you don't need a silent running camera the Beaulieu R-16 can be had with a pretty decent Angenieux zoom and a 200 foot magazine for around a grand.It's not crystal but I have shot sync with the motor select switch in 24 (constant speed)and had very little drift.

On the downside it's whiny and can be finicky.The pressure plate has to be checked to make sure it's properly seated when you thread it or the focal plane will breathe on you.

I will say if the ACL is your choice,do be sure it's the French model and not the English.

Marty

JimMcGee · May 31, 2004

Hi Mitch

I have an Aaton viewfinder I'd like to have brightened. Can you enlighten me on where to find some info on that?

Many thanks,

Jim

Nate Downes · May 31, 2004

While synching one is difficult, you might also consider a Bell and Howell Filmo 70DA or higher. They could take an external magazine, have a motor added, etc. Really a good learners camera.

Mitch Gross · May 31, 2004

Hi Mitch

I have an Aaton viewfinder I'd like to have brightened. Can you enlighten me on where to find some info on that?

Many thanks,

Jim

It's not a good idea for the Aaton because we use a fiber optic bundle instead of an actual ground glass element. Laser brightening is a way of collimating and polishing a ground glass, so it doesn't work for the cameras with fiber optics. You can replace the fiberoptic screen with a groundglass one, but I don't think you'd gain as much as you'd lose.

Anyway, I've posted the info on the fellow at Emerson College who does the laser brightening a number of times but I can't seem to find it at the moment. If you look in last year's archives you should be able to locate the info.

JimMcGee · May 31, 2004

Hi Mitch,

Thanks. I'll check it out.

Aloha,

Jim

cal godot · June 5, 2004

The Canon Scoopic 16 MS is a great camera for starting out with 16mm. You don't have interchangeable lenses but you do have a great lens (12.5-75mm T1.6) with macro. The viewfinder is big and very bright. If you like such things, the auto-exposure is very responsive (if it's working properly, that is).

My favorite thing about the Scoopic is the easy and fast laoding of 100' spools in camera. I'm not aware of any 16mm camera that is this easy to load. This feature has helped me out a great deal in some very "guerilla" situations. The 16 MS also has the ability to shoot 400' loads with the accessory adapter.

It runs pretty quiet, too. I'm sure some here would scoff at it, but I've silenced the camera shooting 100' loads using only a thick blanket. With 400' loads it takes a lot more blanket. I've currently got it in the shop having 24fps crystal sync installed, settign me back some $500 so you can be sure I've tested the silencing bit.

I acquired my Scoopic MS with the adapter and 2 400' magazines for $1000. It was a great deal, purchased from a DP so I didn't have to worry about getting it maintenance right away or major repairs.

I see them on eBay occasionally for less than $1000, but that's without the 400' adapter, which can set you back quite a bit (if you can find it: they are not as common as the cameras). The lesser non-MS Scoopics are also good but do not take the 400' adapter.