Push processing 64T shot at night ??? Tri-X or Vision2 ?

Eugene Hughes · September 12, 2006

Anyone have any luck doing push processing 64T shot at night ? Please share any efforts to do this. I have a Canon 814 Autozoom and I would love to know if anyone has tried this. ( I also have a Sankyo XL-40S, it goes to 1.2 ) I am thinking of using some not too bright lights attached to a rig that will hold the camera and aim light directly onto my subject ( actor ). the light will only be bright enough to light the faces I presume. I am wanting to try this for a Horror short I will be experimenting with. I am looking for a dark & scary effect

Wondering if I should go ahead and use Vision 2 200 or 500T. Any help / ideas from the masters would be gravy and help me in experimenting and learning night shooting.

Best

Eugene

Anthony Schilling · September 12, 2006

Well- pushing 64T will add grain... and it's already grainy. 200T is slightly finer grain than 64T, and almost 3 stops faster... better image. but the 500T may be your safest bet, and still look amazing.

David W Scott · September 12, 2006

Have a look at some comparison shots I took at night:

Super 8 stock discussion on Filmshooting.com

These shots aren't pushed -- they'll give you an idea of what to expect from these stocks at night.

The E64T will not give you anything in the blacks. It will also be extremely grainy if pushed. Killing that grain in telecine will require softening the image and throwing out what little resolution you have.

500T is your saviour for night shooting. It digs deep into the shadows, and will hold highlights without blowing.

A couple of tips for shooting at night:

- Have SOMETHING in your frame that is properly exposed, or is a hot highlight. Otherwise, the whole frame will look muddy.

- Rim light is your friend -- you can let faces go completely black, so long as a rim defines the contours of the face.

- Eyes are amazingly reflective -- a little eyelight will open up an otherwise underexposed face.

Eugene Hughes · September 12, 2006

WOW !

I see that the pics on Filmshooting were pretty good at night w/ 64T, less grain than the 500 or 200. Got better in mid range on the 500 & 200 , but w/ more grain. I saw you stated on that board said the 64T was processed "VNF" . Forgive my ignorance but what is "VNF Processing" I see that 64T uses "E-6" processing, is there a difference ??

I will try the 64T in my Sankyo that will open up to f 1.2 and see wassup w/ dat. I will aslo get some 200 & 500 and see what I can get w/ that too.

THANXXX

Eugene

Edited September 12, 2006 by Eugene Hughes

Andrew Means · September 12, 2006

Have a look at some comparison shots I took at night:

Super 8 stock discussion on Filmshooting.com

Hot damn that's making me excited to shoot in Japan...

David W Scott · September 12, 2006

WOW !
I see that the pics on Filmshooting were pretty good at night w/ 64T, less grain than the 500 or 200. Got better in mid range on the 500 & 200 , but w/ more grain. I saw you stated on that board said the 64T was processed "VNF" . Forgive my ignorance but what is "VNF Processing" I see that 64T uses "E-6" processing, is there a difference ??

The E64T looks quite sharp in motion. When you stop and look at the stills, there isn't a lot of detail there. (Kind of like video -- high contrast masks the low resolution.)

The 200 and 500 could be made to have less grain... by crushing the blacks. You get a look that is closer to the Ektachrome, but still with better latitude. No matter what you shoot, work with your telecine operator to get the look you want.

VNF processing is for older colour reversal ("Video News Film", I think.) Many labs were still running VNF chemicals when Kodak introduced the E64, which is an E-6 processed film. The labs stuck with VNF for a while, because they were still processing old rolls of VNF film that people were turning in. As a stop-gap, they were tweaking the VNF process to develop E-6 as well. Predictably, the results aren't as good as running an E-6 film through E-6 chemistry. E-6, processed in VNF, will give a bluish cast, especially in shadows and daylight exposures. E-6 processing yields a much cleaner, more accurate colour. (Doesn't do anything to reduce the grain, however.)

Please note: Kodak is considering releasing Ektachrome 100D in Super 8. This film is even more fine grained, and more vibrant, than the 64T. People shooting third-party rolls of 100D have given it a big thumbs-up!

Andrew Means · September 12, 2006

Predictably, the results aren't as good as running an E-6 film through E-6 chemistry. E-6, processed in VNF, will give a bluish cast, especially in shadows and daylight exposures. E-6 processing yields a much cleaner, more accurate colour. (Doesn't do anything to reduce the grain, however.)

Could this be why my 64K shot through my R10 (which should have the daylight filter in place) has been coming back overly blue? How rare is it to run into VNF processing these days?

Andy_Alderslade · September 12, 2006

Well- pushing 64T will add grain... and it's already grainy. 200T is slightly finer grain than 64T, and almost 3 stops faster... better image. but the 500T may be your safest bet, and still look amazing.

From my experience I would say the 64T has less grain than the 200T neg. Though i haven't done a side by side test.

Everyone seems to have the concensus that 64T is very grainy when 200T is very grain too.

Richard Tuohy · September 12, 2006

I have push processed 64t to 160asa (1 and 1/3 stops) and to 250 (2 stops). The first was bearable, the second really really grainy. Sorry I can't do pictures, but I certainly wouldn't advise more than one stop.

Anthony Schilling · September 13, 2006

200T can have many levels of grain depending on exposure and telecine. depending on how you crush the blacks, my last 200T at night left not much grain to detect... not so with the 64T in the same conditions. In daylight, 200T can be about the same as 64T, sometimes more or less but there are so many factors. Still makes me ache for 100D or 50D.

David W Scott · September 13, 2006

Could this be why my 64K shot through my R10 (which should have the daylight filter in place) has been coming back overly blue? How rare is it to run into VNF processing these days?

It's possible. My local lab switched to from VNF to E-6 around July this year.

Also, an 85B filter is recommended for Ektachrome 64. If you are using the built-in 85 filter on your camera, then your images are 200 degrees bluer than recommended. Easy to correct in telecine, and you may even prefer the look. But if you expose by the book, go for the slightly oranger 85B.

There's another advantage to using 85B -- you disable the 30-year old (possibly faded) gelatin slide in your camera, and then use a brand-new glass filter that you know is correct.

From my experience I would say the 64T has less grain than the 200T neg. Though i haven't done a side by side test.

Everyone seems to have the concensus that 64T is very grainy when 200T is very grain too.

I think the 64T looks really nice under tungsten light.

200T may well have more grain, but I don't notice it as much -- because I'm distracted by the greatly improved detail and the ability to see into shadows and highlights. Comparing identical shots in 64T and 200T, the 200T looks like you have lifted a veil off the lens.

Bernhard Zitz · September 15, 2006

I shot some nightstuff on tri-x with a canon 310xl. It's opens at F1.0 and has a 220degree shutter. It's a little plastic-crap-camera but pictures are suprisingly good, not what you get on a leicina and a prime, but still ok for experimental stuff.

you can get the 310xl pretty cheap, 10-20$.

Exposure is all auto but at night you'll shoot fully open anyway...

It depends what look you want, for contrasty grainy black and white you can push Tri-x a stop

500T gave me great results at night in 16mm, they say that 500t isn't really grainier that 200T just less sharp...