Gavin Greenwalt Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 I have been lurking on the cinematography.com forums for several years, and it's unfortunate that this is finally what convinces me to register to post a reply. It is true that the general view of the RED camera on the RED forum in DVX user is mostly positive, however I would disagree with the statement that dissent is met with a defacto ban. I spend much of my time looking into the red camera via the DVX forums because that is where I can get the most accurate, and up to date information. Personally I come from a VFX background so much of the film/video debate seems rediculous to me. I just want a camera which can get me affordable 4:4:4 footage. In this regard Red has been on paper a very promising prospect, which I'm evaluating very closely. I was quite surprised they actually were able to create a working quality sensor, although the surprise has only translated into me looking at the technology more closely. Like it or not the RED forum on DVXuser.com is the defacto official forum for the RED camera. If you want to ask questions to its developers and make suggestions you'll get relatively prompt and useful answers. The price you have to pay for such intimacy is to treat it like you were at a corporate headquarters. Be respectful and ask the questions you need answered to make a purchase decision. Most importantly treat the situation like it is a face to face conversation with the individuals involved. I don't imagine you would have been so quick to speculate about Jim Jannard having illegally filed a fake police report if you were in the same room with the man. Personally I didn't see how your behavior and dialogue regarding RED was representative of an individual trying to effectively evaluate a camera. Let's say hypothetically Jim Jannard staged the entire fiasco as a publicity stunt. Would that change your view on the quality of the camera. Personally the whole RED organization could be riding on motorcycles and jumping through flaming hoops and it wouldn't matter the least bit to me, I'm still going to evaluate the RED camera based on its performance. If you are seriously wanting to participate in the dialogue regarding the product, I feel you would make better head way from approaching it as a potential customer, regardless of your opinion of the RED organization. You are either a potential customer or a member of the peanut gallery. I think what happened was the classic "If you aren't looking to buy something, please move along." You were evaluating the ethics of the management, not a product. Having personally directly questioned and doubted Jim Jannard about the feasibility of his project, I can attest, he does not react badly to criticism of his product. I as a customer have been all around greatly confused by the drama surrounding the RED camera. Never in my life have I seen such a vehemently negative attitude towards a product. The number of conspiracy theories and unwarranted baseless accusations is mind blowing. From implications of it being a large scale conspiracy to steal investor's money to corporate espionage and beyond. The normal "I'll believe it when I see it." Skepticism that normally accompanies a new technology has been completely replaced with "It's a large conspiracy perpetrated by criminals until I see it." When did this shift take place? And what was the reason? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Priyesh Puthan Valiyandi Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 (edited) The normal "I'll believe it when I see it." Skepticism that normally accompanies a new technology has been completely replaced with "It's a large conspiracy perpetrated by criminals until I see it." When did this shift take place? And what was the reason? Hi Gavin, I´m very interested in that product, too and await the Red One with a bit of excitement. Regarding your question, I thought about the exact same thing. Here´s what I think why these people behave like this: 1. The technological problems that have / had to be fixed a) It seemed to be impossible to produce a CMOS ( or any ) sensor with 4K resolution that is able to capture up to 60 fps ( 120 fps at 2K ) - please, before you start ranting, that´s what I ( with little knowledge on sensors ) read at several places on the net B) 4K produces insane amounts of data, impossible to be recorded in a portable camera ( solution: wavelet compressed raw data = Red Raw ) c) 4K is way too much data for current computers / NLEs ( Red solves this through Redcine ) d) too much onboard-processing power needed for compression e) too many new technologies in there ( maybe LCOS, OLED etc. ) f) too many revolutionary stuff ( magic focus, redcine etc. ) 2. The timeframe they set to reach their goal a) One year for the product, including the sensor, electronics, software, accessories, one lens and a network of companies for technical support B) It´s targeted to be available within our lifespans, which seems to be impossible 3. The pricing a) It´s too cheap ( since so many people in our industry ( including me ) are very used to premium prices for filmstock, film- and postproduction equipment, so it can´t be good and / or real B) Why does someone like Jim Jannard ( a business-man ) give a camera away virtually for free ( according to the naysayers ) 4. The look a) Red´s images look "rendered" because of the lack of grain B) Film looks better ( why ? ) But I think that quite some of the "acting-to-be-pessimists" are afraid that the Red could be some type of threat to their businesses. Just my 2 Euro-cents P. Edited September 29, 2006 by Priyesh Puthan Valiyandi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin Greenwalt Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 Hi Gavin, But I think that quite some of the "acting-to-be-pessimists" are afraid that the Red could be some type of threat to their businesses. Just my 2 Euro-cents P. I don't think anybody sees the Red camera as a threat. I think it's overly simplistic to suggest for instance that film purists are reacting because they feel threatened. The people whose businesses will be in direct competition (I'm not sure who exactly that would actually be) or at least the people whose businesses are in close proximity have been mostly positive and cordial to both prospective customers and RED itself in my experiences. Nobody is going to lose their jobs over the RED camera, I don't think anybody is afraid of losing their job over the RED camera. Many of the points you made were all things that initially pushed myself to say "impossible" or if possible, irrelevant mostly because of bandwidth issues. Having now experimented on my own time and dime with wavelett based encoders using footage from DALSA I now can see that I was just behind the times on the latest and greatest compression algorithms. But even then it doesn't explain where this positively rabid anti-red and specifically anti-Jannard mentality is coming from. To suggest for instance that it's too revlutionairy for those who dissent is unfair, and much similar to bush labeling terrorists as "enemies of freedom", whatever that even means. Personally I'm of the opinion that if a super 8mm film camera is the best tool for the job, so be it, that's the way it is and that's what I'll use. If having looked over what we know about the red at this point you've decided the Red isn't for you... move on. At this point in the game people should be able to tell whether or not this is something they're interested in investigating further. Even if you aren't confident it only costs $1000 to pre-order which at 6% of the final cost really isn't that bad. If at any time you decide the specs just aren't what you need, ask for your money back. End of problem. Several people from the sounds of it have already done this. This isn't some scammy little business that's going to dissapear tommarow, there are people whose names I trust who have staked their reputation. Who here hasn't used an AJA card at some point in their career? In this industry all we have is our name and a reputation, I choose projects and I choose teams based on the individual's reputation. Their reputations won't convince me to purchase a camera, the camera and its reputation will have to do that. But can we at least all come to an agreement that: A) Red is a real company. B) They are producing a product which will hopefully be available in spring of 07. C) Prototypes exist and they have demonstrated that they are capable of producing 4k footage. D) If you want to reserve a RED camera you can pre-order for a no questions asked refundable deposit of $1000 It seems like very little to ask, but the sooner people can set aside their rediculous trolling the sooner we can learn more and evaluate the product for what it is: a camera someone is trying to sell. Attack a product not a person. Let's all remember the friendly people at Red aren't what we're supposed to be judging we're supposed to be judging a camera. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Priyesh Puthan Valiyandi Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 (edited) I´m not saying it´s a threat to me, but read the reactions of some pro-film-people on this forum, I won´t call names, but some of them are so fundamentalist in defending film for no obvious reason. Edited September 29, 2006 by Priyesh Puthan Valiyandi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary McClurg Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 (edited) I'll add my .02... Hopefully the below statement is not meant to start any flame wars... Looking at what I would need in post and production support... I'm guessing that I would have to spend $65,000... For myself... I can't forgo such a sum until the camera has proven itself... been around and knowing what the workflow is... I believe their are zealots on both sides... those who hate video and those who think film is dead (heard that statement since college... and we won't go back to how long ago that was :D ) I think that half of it is all marketing... about getting the buzz out about the camera... good news or bad news... people are talking about it... so I think there is a little bit of let the flame wars go on... which keeps the Red in the spot light... I posted on another thread my only beef is that the camera goodies and post work flow are going to cost a lot more than pro Red people say... I would like to know about those costs... but to say that things will cost more is not a hatred of the camera... its called making a budget... and saying if I spend this money can I recoup those funds... I'd be doing the same thing if I bought a Cine Alta... Arriflex or any other camera... The only thing that I could see back firing on Red is this... your marketed the camera first to people who can't afford the big guys camera by saying you have a little guys camera... when in truth this is a middle guys camera... That's my .02 for at least the next five minutes... :) Edited September 29, 2006 by Gary McClurg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin Greenwalt Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 The only thing that I could see back firing on Red is this... your marketed the camera first to people who can't afford the big guys camera by saying you have a little guys camera... when in truth this is a middle guys camera... Too true. When Jim Jannard first came on DVXuser and started selling the RED to the community he was very clear in marketing it in such a way as to say something along the lines of 'I wouldn't be on these forums if you couldn't afford it.' A couple of months later the price was > 10k and I don't think anyone noticed. At the price point it's a bargain, but it's still priced to compete with the varicam middle market, not the DVX/HVX/H1 market. I'm not sure what changed in so many people's minds that 17.5k was suddently affordable to the prosumer market. I guess it's the old costco syndrome... "but per pixel..." Hopefully the revolution RED will bring about is to teach Indies to rent... if it doesn't we're going to have a lot of very broke recent film school graduates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary McClurg Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 (edited) Too true. When Jim Jannard first came on DVXuser and started selling the RED to the community he was very clear in marketing it in such a way as to say something along the lines of 'I wouldn't be on these forums if you couldn't afford it.' A couple of months later the price was > 10k and I don't think anyone noticed. At the price point it's a bargain, but it's still priced to compete with the varicam middle market, not the DVX/HVX/H1 market. I'm not sure what changed in so many people's minds that 17.5k was suddently affordable to the prosumer market. I guess it's the old costco syndrome... "but per pixel..." Hopefully the revolution RED will bring about is to teach Indies to rent... if it doesn't we're going to have a lot of very broke recent film school graduates. I was going to post that but didn't.... I believe I first read about it on dvinfo.net... the thread title was something like this.... IF YOU COULD HAVE AN HD CAMERA FOR AROUND $10,000 WHAT WOULD YOU WANT IT TO HAVE? Then as information was leaked that's where some stated that the price could not be that low... So I based my thoughts off the Canon... accept I wanted true 1080p and 24p... I like the Canon so no Canon lovers beat me up... I still might buy one soon... and I wanted a better and wider zoom... and different frame rates... a way to record to tape (for a backup) and some type of tapeless workflow at the same time... of course if it came with a 35mm size sensor for better dof that would be also very nice... Many people couldn't believe it... I think some thought it was going to be some guy who built the camera on his own... when I heard it was a rich guy who loved cameras... I thought yeah it could happen... I just didn't like the idea that when the price hit the cyber waves that it would be a body only for $17,500... now if they want to make a Red Light with my specs... for that price... I'd pay that in a heartbeat... again once its out a while... I guess I've got it stuck in my mind... my dad always told us kids when growing up never to buy a car the first year out... wait till the next years model because they'll have all the bugs worked out... Edited September 29, 2006 by Gary McClurg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Max Jacoby Posted September 30, 2006 Premium Member Share Posted September 30, 2006 I will agree with you, though, that some of the RED fanbase act a bit like recent converts to a new religion. Just had a look at one of these websites today. They were spraying their shorts over a shot of, would you freaking believe it, a Macbeth color chart... The amount of backslapping that goes on there is simply astounding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Kenny Posted September 30, 2006 Share Posted September 30, 2006 Too true. When Jim Jannard first came on DVXuser and started selling the RED to the community he was very clear in marketing it in such a way as to say something along the lines of 'I wouldn't be on these forums if you couldn't afford it.' A couple of months later the price was > 10k and I don't think anyone noticed. At the price point it's a bargain, but it's still priced to compete with the varicam middle market, not the DVX/HVX/H1 market. I don't think these markets are quite as distinct as they're often presented as being. There are a lot of people using DVX/HVX/H1 level cameras who probably have the money for more serious cameras, but don't see anything that provides sufficient value at a price they can afford. RED might be priced to compete with the "varicam middle market" (actually I suspect you can get into RED for half the price), but its specs put it in the same class as the DALSA Origin. Assuming this won't disrupt the current market segmentation would be unwise. Also, consider that cameras at the DVX/HVX/H1 level often get replaced every couple years, which frequently requires buying new accessories, etc. This almost certainly won't be the case with RED. RED has specs good enough that it should be quite future-proof out of the box, and it uses standardized accessories. And RED has even talked about things like offering sensor upgrades in the future; send in your body, get it back with a better sensor. RED could end up being significant cheaper over a five or ten year period than working your way through a succession of prosumer cameras. (Standard disclaimer: assuming the camera ships, etc.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Stephen Williams Posted September 30, 2006 Premium Member Share Posted September 30, 2006 This almost certainly won't be the case with RED. RED has specs good enough that it should be quite future-proof out of the box, and it uses standardized accessories. And RED has even talked about things like offering sensor upgrades in the future; send in your body, get it back with a better sensor. RED could end up being significant cheaper over a five or ten year period than working your way through a succession of prosumer cameras. (Standard disclaimer: assuming the camera ships, etc.) Hi, Historically it has never been worth upgrading a PC or Digital camera after 3 years, I don't see why Red will be very different. Prices will continue to fall, in 10 years time $17,500 for a camera body will probably seem very expensive. Jim, I am not saying that there is anything wrong with your sensor or camera. Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Schrengohst Posted September 30, 2006 Share Posted September 30, 2006 Just had a look at one of these websites today. They were spraying their shorts over a shot of, would you freaking believe it, a Macbeth color chart... The amount of backslapping that goes on there is simply astounding. Maybe they should change the website name to REDUser.com? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Max Jacoby Posted September 30, 2006 Premium Member Share Posted September 30, 2006 Jim, I am not saying that there is anything wrong with your sensor or camera. Hehe, got ourselves a new running gag there Stephen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Tyler Posted October 1, 2006 Share Posted October 1, 2006 (Trying to put an end to the RED bickering) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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