Alvin Pingol Posted August 5, 2004 Share Posted August 5, 2004 Started production acting as DP for a ultra-low-budget feature about a week ago. (Note, all of the following grabs have been processed with a custom 60i-24P filter written in AVISynth). Got some very cool shots, like the following, which is of a kung fu student practicing a form on a very, very foggy day: http://alvin.ping.home.comcast.net/DV/TWW/form.jpg And this deer, which we just happened to see walking along during production: http://alvin.ping.home.comcast.net/DV/TWW/deer.jpg One of my favorite shots, a group of ninjas dodging in and out and between a maze of trees on a foggy day: http://alvin.ping.home.comcast.net/DV/TWW/forestwide.jpg And another: http://alvin.ping.home.comcast.net/DV/TWW/forestchase.jpg Those previous two scenes were shot with Day For Night in mind, but I can't seem to get a convincing look. I thought that the overcast/forest combo would help with getting a good night time look, but no matter how much I tweak the image, I can't seem to get it just right! Aghh. But of course, actually shooting at night wouldn't have been any easier ;-). Dialogue, natural lighting, EXT day, overcast: http://alvin.ping.home.comcast.net/DV/TWW/conver01.jpg http://alvin.ping.home.comcast.net/DV/TWW/conver02.jpg And then there's this. My first green screen attempt. This being an almost no-budget film, I did not have proper equipment to light the screen. Just had a few tungstens for accent lighting: http://alvin.ping.home.comcast.net/DV/TWW/...greenscreen.jpg I tried doing a chroma key on this and it worked out alright, but of course, the hair gave me trouble. Looks like her head glows green - if I lower the threshold any more, greenscreen starts cutting into her arm and wardrobe. In order to light the screen, we had to hang it in a room with several windows opposite the screen. The natural daylight ambience light coming in provided fairly uniform coverage, and I set up a few tungstens as seperation light. It was an overcast day so that basically eliminated the need to diffuse or bounce daylight onto the screen. If this film were to be blown up to 16mm, how well do you think the sharpness would hold up when projected onto a larger screen, based off of these grabs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member David Mullen ASC Posted August 6, 2004 Premium Member Share Posted August 6, 2004 What camera are you using? Your subject is too close to the greenscreen (you need a bigger screen farther back) and the screen is too bright compared to the subject. You're so close that the subject is throwing a shadow on the screen. The foggy day and woods stuff looks nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos M. Icaza Posted August 6, 2004 Share Posted August 6, 2004 Hey that forrest photography looks very nice. The fog adds production value. What camera are you using ? What lens ? and what software to go from 60i to 24p? I done very minimal work on green screen(test shots), but I saw a shadow on the green screen from the subject (to the subjects right) and that might cause you some problem. Cheers, Carlos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Short Posted August 6, 2004 Share Posted August 6, 2004 I do alot of greenscreen & compositing work and though your subject is too close to the greenscreen, it is a very managable shot. If you can shoot it again, move the screen back and light the subject according to your composite. Also, I find that using a Bluescreen works better with blondes. What software are you using to pull the key? You should really use something like Ultimatte or Primatte. The keyers that come standard in most NLEs are pretty lame. I took the jpeg and did a quick key to see how difficult it would be. I used Primatte with a spill suppressor and a lightwrap. I also used a smooth screen filter on the greenscreen and adjusted the levels. It took me about 5 minutes. When trying to get a decent key, you'll usually end up using a half dozen different filters, even if its properly lit & shot. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Short Posted August 6, 2004 Share Posted August 6, 2004 I took a stab at the DFN shots on my lunch break... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanStewart Posted August 6, 2004 Share Posted August 6, 2004 If you do more greenscreen remember that you can garbage matte empty portions of the frame - assuming she stands still in the shot, that screen could have been rotated 90 degrees and moved further back while still protecting her. Still it looks manageable to me as it is. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Phil Rhodes Posted August 6, 2004 Premium Member Share Posted August 6, 2004 Hi, I've seen much worse green than that key fine. Bit much light wrap on the primatte. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alvin Pingol Posted August 8, 2004 Author Share Posted August 8, 2004 @ David Mullen: >>What camera are you using? JVC GY-DV300 >>Your subject is too close to the greenscreen (you need a bigger screen farther >>back) Will remember that for next time... >>and the screen is too bright compared to the subject. Thank you - still trying to find the proper levels to light screen and subject. That comment helps a lot. We can easily reshoot this greenscreen material, so thanks to everyone for the tips. >>The foggy day and woods stuff looks nice. Thanks! :) But boy, those foggy days were cold! Especially in the forest, where all the moisture would cause large droplets to form high up on the trees only to later fall on our heads and cameras. Good thing we brought some tea towels. :lol: @ Carlos: >>and what software to go from 60i to 24p? Script written for AVISynth and converted back to AVI using VirtualDub. @ MattShort: >>Also, I find that using a Bluescreen works better with blondes. Is there sufficient blue chroma data in a YUV signal to pull a clean key? >>What software are you using to pull the key? Right now I'm using Adobe Premiere Pro 1.5. >>The keyers that come standard in most NLEs are pretty lame. Yeah, the greenscreen chromakey filter doesn't really work that great (I suppose you'd need a pretty clean greenscreen for this to work), so I find that "choose-your-own-chroma-key" filter to work better with what I have. I have been able to pull a somewhat clean matte, but not as good as what you did in Primatte. I usually end up getting some horrible pixelation on the subject's head. >>I took a stab at the DFN shots on my lunch break... This looks almost exactly like what I had at first, but found the lack of color to be a disappointment to the director. The group that the ninjas are hunting down are dressed so that each person wears a different color, and these colors are important to the story. I'm stuck trying to find a good balance between getting a good DFN, yet at the same time keeping enough color information so that the colored shirts are still discernable. Thanks to everyone for the comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Short Posted August 8, 2004 Share Posted August 8, 2004 How about posting a shot of the characters in colors. I'd like to try the DFN with them to see if I can get the effect and keep the colors. >>Is there sufficient blue chroma data in a YUV signal to pull a clean key? << Yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alvin Pingol Posted August 8, 2004 Author Share Posted August 8, 2004 Light Blue: http://alvin.ping.home.comcast.net/DV/TWW/jasonpunch.jpg Light Tan: http://alvin.ping.home.comcast.net/DV/TWW/karakick.jpg There's also pink and red, (following shot not meant for DFN, for example purpose only) http://alvin.ping.home.comcast.net/DV/TWW/practice.jpg I'll try to get some DFN-intended footage of the pink and red subjects. As for chromakey, this is about the best I could get using Premiere: http://alvin.ping.home.comcast.net/DV/TWW/gs-m.jpg Which results in this: http://alvin.ping.home.comcast.net/DV/TWW/gs-w.jpg Other stuff... Nice natural lighting http://alvin.ping.home.comcast.net/DV/TWW/jimmywindow.jpg Chromatic abberation http://alvin.ping.home.comcast.net/DV/TWW/justintree.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Short Posted August 9, 2004 Share Posted August 9, 2004 I only had time to fool around with one. It was very difficult to keep any color and still make it look like night. I'm not sure if it would be very convincing in motion. In After Effects, I doubled the layer, and selected the color range of the shirt to seperate it out on that layer. Then, I tweaked the two layers with tints and levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Phil Rhodes Posted August 9, 2004 Premium Member Share Posted August 9, 2004 Hi, How come everyone else gets to shoot these staggeringly good-looking things, while I end up... well.... Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alvin Pingol Posted August 10, 2004 Author Share Posted August 10, 2004 Hi Matt, I really like how that turned out! Using selective color pass sounds like a good idea, especially for the shots that have just one colored shirt in them (as in the one you worked on). Thanks for the tip... I didn't even consider that. As for the DFN shots that have all color shits in them (not many), I'll just have to be extra tricky. How come everyone else gets to shoot these staggeringly good-looking things, while I end up... well.... Staggeringly good-looking? I appreciate the words, but knowing how much better I could've framed and lit many of these scenes, I am not "proud" of any of them (except for maybe this one). The director I work with is far too controlling, and I doubt he knows how long it takes to get just the right shot. In boring locations, it always seems I have plenty of time to frame the shots, but whever I want to take advantage of a nice location that we probably won't be able to return to (like this), I'm always rushed and end up having boring, wide ("easy") shots. Also, it seems he always blocks the actors in the most difficult way to shoot, having them walk accross the axis or performing other odd things. And now, he's gotten into the habit of taking my camera and framing the shots while I set up other equipment. I find this extremely insulting. The least he could to is to tell me what he wants. Not do it for me. Every time he does this, I feel like saying, "Well, it's obvious you don't need me here," and drive home. Also ticks me off a bit when he frames my shot and says, "Alvin, it's too dark." Well duh! The previous shot was heavily lit and therefore the iris is stopped down. After all, he was the first to turn on the camera at the new setup, so yes, the iris will still be stopped down. So now, I remove the camera battery while setting up other equipment, and tell him I do so because it saves battery life (which it does, but so slightly, it's insignificant). :D Good prep for Hollywood, I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Short Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 I'm sure others here will agree, being able to effectively deal with difficult people is 50% of shooting. >>As for the DFN shots that have all color shits in them (not many), I'll just have to be extra tricky.<< Just use a seperate layer for each color. The main problem with the shot I did was the shirt color was very close to alot of the background. I did use a garbage matte around the girl. The entire shot may require rotoscoping the shirt. Also,for your greenscreen shots, I'd try to find somebody with the proper software to key and composite those shots instead of trying to do it with Premiere. You've got some great looking shots, to have a crappy chromakey in the middle of it would be really distracting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alvin Pingol Posted August 10, 2004 Author Share Posted August 10, 2004 >>Also,for your greenscreen shots, I'd try to find somebody with the proper >>software to key and composite those shots instead of trying to do it with >>Premiere. You've got some great looking shots, to have a crappy chromakey in >>the middle of it would be really distracting. Yeah - it'd almost ruin the entire thing to have nice shots followed by some cheesy greenscreen composite. We'll reshoot the greenscreen material appropriately, and I'll try to find someone who is experienced in greenscreen to do the comps for us. If I can't do that, I'll get a copy of Primatte and do it myself. The majority of greenscreen work will have a CG "maze-of-fire" type thing as the background plate, so hard edgelights would work well for that. One more difficult comp, however, calls for the background plate to start off as a beach, to which it then morphs into the maze of fire. We'll probably have to do some dynamic color correction during the morph to get things to look right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Short Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 The best program (for the money) is Commotion. It is an excellent tool for paint, rotoscope, wire/rig removal and compositing. Its only about $500 and it comes with Primatte and Composite Wizard. The main drawback is its a deadend program. There is no developement or plans for a future version. I have version 3.1 and I use it all the time. It would definitely handle everything your trying to accomplish here. Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alvin Pingol Posted August 11, 2004 Author Share Posted August 11, 2004 Hi Matt, thanks for the recommendation. I have heard very good things about Commotion; I'll certainly get this application soon, as I'm sure this won't be the last time I'll be doing chromakey work. P.S... I got a message on my phone early this morning, "Hey Alvin. Uhh, we're shooting today. Where are you. Call me back as soon as you get this." Hmrph. It would help if they called me the day before. <_< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Short Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 Alvin, Here's the link for pinnacle systems, so you can check out commotion. http://www.pinnaclesys.com/ProductPage_n.a...110&Langue_ID=7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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