Pizza RED predictions

[John Sprung]

Mayby the Geneisis will become the "Eyemo" for this century!

Genesis isn't small enough to be much good as a crash camera. Iconix on the end of a nice long wire is probably a better choice -- that way you only lose the lens and chips, the recording happens far away. That makes the probability of survival much higher for the recording, so you can put the actual camera in much worse places, where it will surely be destroyed.

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[Daniel Sheehy]

they became marketleader for s35 cameras within 24 months.

 

I'm sorry mate, but the fact that its not shipping yet puts a rather large dent in its claim to be the market leader anywhere.

 

Sure they may have racked up the most pre-orders the fastest... but that is not how you measure business success. Once they start shipping, then they'll truely be market leaders, in their own unique niche.

 

I continue to watch the D-Cinema developments with much interest...

[Max Jacoby]

They rent just lenses all the time for motion control use, I have various mounts for my Fries Mitchell including a PV.

That's interesting as I happen to know that Panavision asked one company not to put a PV mount on their cameras.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

If Jim isn't making a camera then Steven Spielberg doesn't make movies.

 

Putting the right people in the right places and pointing them in the right direction is just as integral if not more than being an excellent signal processing engineer. I would think of all people everyone here on this forum would understand the significance of good direction.

Edited July 24, 2007 by Gavin Greenwalt

[Werner Klipsch]

If Jim isn't making a camera then Steven Spielberg doesn't make movies.

No Spielberg definitely makes movies. I have spent many enjoyable hours watching Mr Spielberg's movies. All I have seen of the Jannard's product is the equivalent of a printed poster and a teaser in the cinema

 

 

Putting the right people in the right places and pointing them in the right direction is just as integral if not more than being an excellent signal processing engineer. I would think of all people everyone here on this forum would understand the significance of good direction.

 

Building a complex electronic system is not at all like making a movie. It basically involves you hiring a collection of talented people, making sure they can all work as a team, not working them too hard, and accepting it will take as long as it takes without any bullying or aggressive behaviour.

 

Every body has to understand rules of civilized behaviour, and everybody needs to understand something about what everybody else does. In this the requirement is software people who have some understanding of electronics, and electronics people who understand something about computer programming. Without that, you usually wind up with a total mess.

 

If you don't have all this you are at the mercy of how enthusiastic your staff are, and many projects sink with no trace once they lose interest. Good software is not written by chain-smoking caffeine addicts, regardless of the stereotypes :lol:

[Mitch Gross]

Let's not make any assumptions about Mr. Jannard's business practices. By all accounts he has been very directly and heavily involved in the development of the RED One and associated products. When the gear actually ships then we shall all see. Until then this is a bunch of noise.

[Will Earl]

Building a complex electronic system is not at all like making a movie. It basically involves you hiring a collection of talented people, making sure they can all work as a team, not working them too hard, and accepting it will take as long as it takes without any bullying or aggressive behaviour.

 

Your right, making a movie involves hiring a useless crew that don't get along, are overworked and bullied. ;)

[jan von krogh]

Hi Jan,

When cameras start being delivered to the Reservation holders, tests will be carried out. If those tests provide good results then Red could be very interesting tool available.

my humble opinion after some years of experience with arri, panavision as well as sony & panasonic indicates that red will mean to cameras, what avid meant to steenbeck or moviola, cubase or protools meant to tascam or alesis etc.

 

if your opinion is a different one, i respect that. however i suppose we will revisit these threads and quote them in the foreseeable future.

 

Today I don't have that choice, I have to make do with what is available to shoot today, that includes 35mm film, Viper & F23.

ah, you are shooting on the f23, interesting.

why is that if i might ask?

isn´t the viper superior? or is it inferior?

or the genesis or the d20?

 

isn´t 35 or 65mm the superior aquisition media for all purposes?

[jan von krogh]

No Spielberg definitely makes movies. I have spent many enjoyable hours watching Mr Spielberg's movies. All I have seen of the Jannard's product is the equivalent of a printed poster and a teaser in the cinema

obvious.

you certainly didn´t see peter jacksons ctl or the early tests of red.

however you do have an opinion about the camera you missed to see.

suprising, if i may so, from a professional point of view.

 

 

If you don't have all this you are at the mercy of how enthusiastic your staff are, and many projects sink with no trace once they lose interest. Good software is not written by chain-smoking caffeine addicts, regardless of the stereotypes :lol:

if i remember my 6 years with discreet logic correctly, we had some coders which were on some more exciting stuff while coding flame, combustion and inferno than caffeine.

however, i suppose that your pleas are, as your experience with the red camera: heresay and speculation.

[jan von krogh]

I'm sorry mate, but the fact that its not shipping yet puts a rather large dent in its claim to be the market leader anywhere.

agreed.

 

Sure they may have racked up the most pre-orders the fastest... but that is not how you measure business success.

i suppose that 2000+ 35mm cameras will have a lasting influence on several industries.

if you think that red won´t deliver 2000 bodies within the next 12 months, ok. they plan for >4000.

 

and i can fully reassure you, that most business people do measure business success basing on market share.

with 2000 units on preorder, how much market shae would that be in the 35mm segment. 80%?

 

 

Once they start shipping, then they'll truely be market leaders, in their own unique niche.

so, you would recommend to any friend to buy an 235 or 435, penelope or studio as investment -right now-?

i wouldn´t.

 

reds niche is panavisions, aatons and arris market.

much less sonys, ikegamis or panasonics.

 

I continue to watch the D-Cinema developments with much interest...

recommendable.

[Daniel Sheehy]

and i can fully reassure you, that most business people do measure business success basing on market share.

with 2000 units on pre-order, how much market share would that be in the 35mm segment. 80%?

Absolutely agree that success is measured by market share. I guess the point I was trying to make is, it will be interesting to see how those pre-orders translate. I still think that calculating market share on pre-orders, which may or may not all follow through, is a little bit on the pretentious side... more realistic to start counting your market share once you're actually out in the market.

 

Yes 2000 units are going to have an interesting effect on the industry.. but I don't believe any one can yet accurately predict how it will impact. I think a lot is going to do with who gets their hands on them and how the 1st year pans out in terms of practical workflow & tech support

 

so, you would recommend to any friend to buy an 235 or 435, penelope or studio as investment -right now-?

i wouldn´t.

If a friend was interested in buying a film camera, I see no reason why they shouldn't go ahead and buy, RED is not a film camera.

 

If they were looking into buying a D-cinema camera, I'd strongly recommend that they hire & sit tight to see how the next 6 months pan out, along with RED, SI are also releasing some very interesting options.

 

But at some point, if you're going to buy, you've gotta jump in & go with the best that is currently available, the longer you wait, the more upgrades appear on the horizon ;)

 

RED looks fascinating, but it will by no means be the last entrant into this particular market.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

If it were so simple everybody would have a camera with a late August projected release date.

 

If the camera ends up being marginal in quality then Jim created the mystique of RED. If the camera ends up being phenomenal then the only reason it came into existance was the result of visionairy leadership. Eitherway he can take the prize and the absence of any immediate competition is a testament to that.

Edited July 25, 2007 by Gavin Greenwalt

[Max Jacoby]

ah, you are shooting on the f23, interesting.

why is that if i might ask?

isn´t the viper superior? or is it inferior?

or the genesis or the d20?

Seems to me that focussing exclusively on the yet-to-be-released Red has left you out of the loop what exisiting cameras is concerned ;)

[Mitch Gross]

The Sony F23 is a remarkable camera -- some say the benchmark for performance right now. It is a formidable machine and there are lots of good reasons for people to soot with it.

 

Claiming that 2000 RED One cameras will become something even close to 80% of the market is way off base. RED may ship a bunch of cameras all at once, but then that well will dry up and they know this. It;s not like they will continue to sell 1000 cameras a year or anything like that. There simply is no market to support it even if they sold the camera for $5000 each. They will fill the reservation list and frankly lots and lots of people will probably drop out when their number comes up, then they will sell a bunch more and then the market will saturate that the flow will slow to a trickle. That is how these things work.

 

Smart business people in production companies and rental houses have reservations in because they want to ALSO have RED One cameras in their arsenal along side their other cameras. It is not because they plan to replace their other cameras. The RED One by design is not a replacement forall other technology; it is a shift with its own advantages for certain types of work. There are times when 35mm film will be more appropriate, when a Varicam will be more appropriate, when a DVX100 will be more appropriate, etc. Don't expect to see stacks of Arriflexes sitting injunk shops just yet.

[Werner Klipsch]

Eitherway he can take the prize and the absence of any immediate competition is a testament to that.

I think it is more the testament to the fact that there is no shortage of "digital cinematography" already out there that both never lived up to their manufacturers spiel and had minimalist impact on the industry when they did work. Success is not measured by what happens on the honeymoon, it is measured by how long the couple stay married, the couple being the industry and the manufacturers in this case. :lol:

 

It is not enough that rivals can make a camera as good as or better than the RED, there has to be seen to be some financial payoff or there will be no backing.

[Max Jacoby]

Don't expect to see stacks of Arriflexes sitting injunk shops just yet.

And there I was hoping to pick up a 765 soon from Camden Market.

[Werner Klipsch]

however, i suppose that your pleas are, as your experience with the red camera: heresay and speculation.

And yours is not? Why don't YOU tell us all about your hands on experience with the RED then. What have you got to hide?

 

Sigh. You do suppose a lot of things.

 

<thread closing mode>

One suspects your organ of supposition is located somewhere near your organ of evacuation :P

</thread closing mode>

 

(Sorry, my wife came up with that. If you don't understand it, I don't either, really. :lol: )

[Werner Klipsch]

Your right, making a movie involves hiring a useless crew that don't get along, are overworked and bullied. ;)

At last, an industry professional with credibility :lol:

Why do I think that most of the films that get made with REDS (if there ever are any) will be like that?

[John Sprung]

Don't expect to see stacks of Arriflexes sitting injunk shops just yet.

Yeah, Arri's are such odd shapes, they don't stack well at all. ;-) Maybe the very boxy Red body has an advantage there. ;-)

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[Stephen Williams]

ah, you are shooting on the f23, interesting.

why is that if i might ask?

isn´t the viper superior? or is it inferior?

or the genesis or the d20?

 

isn´t 35 or 65mm the superior aquisition media for all purposes?

 

Hi,

 

F23 with over 12 stops DR is the best digital camera available now. I look forward to a direct test with Red.

 

Yes 65mm is the superior medium followed by 35mm, sometimes my clients want to go the digital route,if that means Viper or F23 that's OK by me.

 

Stephen

[Ruairi Robinson]

Hi,

 

F23 with over 12 stops DR is the best digital camera available now. I look forward to a direct test with Red.

 

Yes 65mm is the superior medium followed by 35mm, sometimes my clients want to go the digital route,if that means Viper or F23 that's OK by me.

 

Stephen

 

does the F23 really have over 12 stops of dynamic range? has this been conclusively been demonstrated and proven?

[Ruairi Robinson]

does the F23 really have over 12 stops of dynamic range? has this been conclusively been demonstrated and proven?

 

This guy says 13.

 

 

is he a filthy liar?

[Stephen Williams]

does the F23 really have over 12 stops of dynamic range? has this been conclusively been demonstrated and proven?

 

Hi Ruairi,

 

Take a look for yourself, more than the Viper. I am waiting for the first F23 V Red test, not sure if people here want to see an apples v apples test.

 

http://www.cinematography.net/compare%202007/index.htm

 

Stephen

[John Sprung]

I am waiting for the first F23 V Red test, ...

F23 is a 2/3" three chip camera. That would certainly be the big difference between it and a single large chip like Red -- depth of field.

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[Stephen Williams]

F23 is a 2/3" three chip camera. That would certainly be the big difference between it and a single large chip like Red -- depth of field.

-- J.S.

 

Hi John,

 

Shooting wide open with digiprimes, seems to cause just as many problems for focus pullers than shooting 35mm film. There is a lot less fudge factor, its really very obvious when they are slightly off. I am interested if S35 DOF is going to be such an advantage for many of the owners, using still camera lenses.

 

YMMV

 

Stephen