Betacam SX and SP AND Dvfilm 24p

September 26, 2004

Hi,

I am doing some narrative shorts soon, one of which is definitely going to be shot on Sony DSR 500- however, I also have the choice of working with these cameras if I prefer for two later projects:

Betacam SX

DNW90WSP

Betacam SP - Analogue recording

DXCD 30WSP + PVV3P

What would be the pros and cons of these two and how do the visual results compare to the Sony DSR 500? What would you shoot on and why?

PS: how would these formats do in reference to www.dvfilm.com's 24p conversion?

Stephen Press · September 30, 2004

OK Fstop. First don?t get hung up on 24p. It?s a gimmick that is all the rage at the moment but it?s not all that important. HD is coming and 24p will be forgotten.

Next what are you paying for the cameras and what you cutting on? Why pay more to shoot SX if it is all being dubbed down to DV in the end? That said I?d probably still go for the SX. Get the best image you can in the field.

How good is the lens on each camera? I have a 500 I can use with a $30,000 wide lens on it that is beautiful, almost worth the quality drop from SX to Dvcam? almost? maybe not.

Are you doing any green screen? If so the look seriously at the SP cameras. SP keys a lot better than Dvcam.

I guess I?m saying you need the right tool for the right job.

September 30, 2004

Thankyou very much for this! :)

I am not doing greenscreen, no- I am gonna do my first project DSR500 with that dvfilm sampler, and if I'm not happy with that I'll come back here and hopefully pick your brains again and maybe change camera!

cheers

Phil Rhodes · September 30, 2004

Hi,

Where'd you get the idea that SX is a quality drop from DVCAM?

Phil

Stephen Press · October 1, 2004

Sorry if that wasn?t clear but I meant that SX is better quality than DVCam so why pay more to shoot SX if you are dropping quality to edit on the lower format 4:1:1 DVCam? If you are editing on a 4:2:2 system then go SX? in fact if there is no money difference in camera choice I would still go SX.

Ok :blink:

Mitch Gross · October 1, 2004

I would not characterize 24p as a gimmick. It certainly renders a specific type of motion that cannot be captured in any other way. That said, one does need to choose battles. There are the two inexpensive 24p cameras (the DVX100A and the XL2) and then the price jumps dramatically to the Panasonic SDX900 or the Sony IMX camera. The SDX900 uses DVCPro50 which is better than Beta SX, but again it's only good if you have it available to you.

And by the way, it is ALWAYS better to capture in a higher format even if you have to dumb it down for editing. The loss at every step always exists and the rule of thumb is to get the most from the start to keep the most in the end.

Stephen Press · October 1, 2004

Of course 24p is a gimmick. It was really fashionable in the ad industry 5 years ago, and then when daytime soaps started it got over used and died off. Now home handycams can do it and people are being coned into thinking that by shooting 24p they are more film like. The DVX100A with its pretend mat box like lens hood is cynically marketed at wantabe film makers and 24p is the gimmick they are using to get people interested.

Phil Rhodes · October 1, 2004

Hi,

SX might be 4:2:2, but it's horribly compressed. The tapes are an hour long - how else are they going to have done it? Along with IMX, it's pretty much designed just to fulfil the (myopic and unthinking) broadcasters' common requirement that material be 4:2:2. It's a rotten format which offers no practical advantage over DV, unless possibly you're doing chromakey work, in which case I'd still want to see tests because it's so compressed.

Phil

Stephen Press · October 3, 2004

I?m new to this board so I don?t know you Phil and please don?t take this personally but ?IMX is a rotten format that offers no practical advantage over DV?? What have you been smoking? IMX is head and shoulders over DV. You would be a complete idiot to settle for DV if you could have IMX especially as IMX 50 is on the way lifting it up to HD standards.

Phil Rhodes · October 3, 2004

Hi,

If you re-read my comments, you will notice that they are aimed mainly at Beta SX.

However, you have to be very careful with IMX as well. A lot of IMX that you'll actually come across in practical circumstances is 30 megabit; I would argue that the MPEG-2 stream is less optimised for intra-frame compression than is DV, on top of the fact that you're asking it to store 4:2:2 over 4:1:1, which is double the chroma data. Just on the basis of this, irrespective of whether you accept my assertation about I-frame MPEG-2, IMX-30 is enormously more compressed than is DV.

Now, if you're talking about IMX-50, then you're working in slightly different circumstances - but if you're doing that you might as well shoot Digibeta for what it costs, and digi is barely compressed at all!

Please don't be sucked into the standard Sony propaganda that because it's 4:2:2 and uses a Beta-size cassette it's preferable to DVCAM, because in many cases it absolutely isn't. IMX is intended to be an ENG format as well as a server format for automated playout; there is of course an advantage in keeping your acquisition, edit and storage formats consolidated in this way. If you're not in these circumstances, there's very little reason to do it.

Phil

Phil Rhodes · October 12, 2004

Hi,

> I did shoot this weekend and with two Betacameras with DVCAM recorders built

> onto them

You're talking about something like a DXC-35 with the DSR-1 recorder on it, yes? Nothing to do with betacam at all.

Phil

October 12, 2004

Oh, is it not? I'm sure the hiring place mentioned Beta at some point, but looking up those cameras you'd mentioned (not to mention your track record of video knowledge ;) ) I'd have to say you are right on this one!- is this camera combo thingy options/settings wise similar to the DSR500 then?

I must also mention that adding pantyhose behind the lens looks AMAZING on this camera!

Phil Rhodes · October 12, 2004

Hi,

A DXC-35WSP with a DSR-1 is essentially equivalent to a DSR-500, yes. Very common and popular combination in the UK where you may need to shoot betaSP or DVCAM at short notice, and always widescreen. I almost bought one.

Betacam is the tape format (compare Betacam SP - superior performance - Betamax, Digital Betacam, Beta SX, IMX, and HDCAM, all of which look identical from ten paces) The term is occasionally used to refer to the layout of the camera - "Yes, I own a DSR-500, it's a betacam-style thing. Yes, it's better than your PD-150."

Phil