You've finished film school

[GeorgeSelinsky]

One thing many young filmmakers are missing these days is a sense of film history and life experience. And it irks me to no end

 

(snip)

 

It's self-defeating if you make a film simply for the purposes of making a film. And the shallowness very often shows itself on-screen. If you don't have anything to say, what is the point of making the film in the first place?

 

Absolutely. However, I differ about film theory. A lot of film students get too big headed about it sometimes, to the point where they believe they can construct and plan every shot perfectly like a math forumla, using film theory. You always hear these big headed discussions on student film sets "Like Orson Welles did in... Like Stanley Kubrick did in... Like Martin Scorsese did in..." and everyone's throwing around buzzwords like they're some big shots. They don't think about the meat of what they're doing, they think more about style.

 

I think it's interesting when you end up learning that a considerable percent of cinematic "style" choices are actually dictated by practical concerns on the set, and are the result of circumstance and in some cases even accident/coincidence. And a lot of "genius" ideas come often not after a heavy night of brainstorming but in a flash of quick inspiration. All of these things you can only learn when you start actually shooting.

 

The biggest problem with theory is that you need to know how and when to apply it. When you start shooting your first films the basic goal is to play it conservatively, get things in the can and cut it so its legible. Its all about knowing the 1-2-3, getting basic cinematic language down. Then you can start playing with style more as you get a bit more confident in your ability to nail a meat n' potatoes scene. That said nobody follows the rules and everyone wants to out-avant-guarde each other, which is okay and fun, but when you try to carry this over from school into the professional world it's dangerous.

 

That's one of the biggest problems in filmschool, the border between work and play are poorly defined, and there is a readjustment when you enter the real film world. So many kids who win prizes for short films just bomb when they go to make their first features because of that.

 

As for "what to say", that always requires a certain level of life experience. It's funny to see a 22 year old guy directing some 69 year old man and telling him what his thoughts should be about his dead wife, etc. You even see some hostility sometimes between actors and film student directors, because the actors think "Who's this kid to tell me?".

[K Borowski]

That was a very very long response to a side note. :blink:

 

R,

 

Well, you HAVE to right long responses when you're in the position of being a hold-out ;)

 

I took an opportunity to vent two years of engineering that are otherwise of no use to me whatsoever.

 

~KB

[K Borowski]

Absolutely. However, I differ about film theory. A lot of film students get too big headed about it sometimes, to the point where they believe they can construct and plan every shot perfectly like a math forumla, using film theory. You always hear these big headed discussions on student film sets "Like Orson Welles did in... Like Stanley Kubrick did in... Like Martin Scorsese did in..." and everyone's throwing around buzzwords like they're some big shots. They don't think about the meat of what they're doing, they think more about style.

 

I think it's interesting when you end up learning that a considerable percent of cinematic "style" choices are actually dictated by practical concerns on the set, and are the result of circumstance and in some cases even accident/coincidence. And a lot of "genius" ideas come often not after a heavy night of brainstorming but in a flash of quick inspiration. All of these things you can only learn when you start actually shooting.

 

It's interesting you should mention this. There's a story I heard about a student telling a director how he very much admired the static shot he did of (someone on?) a hillside. He then asks how the director became inspired to shoot this hillside in such a unique and innovative fashion (I forget the specifics of what made it different). The director then replies that they couldn't have panned left because there was a factory, and couldn't have panned right because of a windmill, since it was a period piece. Many many famous shots from movies are like this, done out of necessity to hide something or to disguise something to make it appear in a matter different from what is really there, for instance with a lot of forced perspective shots.

 

~KB

[Zamir Merali]

It's interesting you should mention this. There's a story I heard about a student telling a director how he very much admired the static shot he did of (someone on?) a hillside. He then asks how the director became inspired to shoot this hillside in such a unique and innovative fashion (I forget the specifics of what made it different). The director then replies that they couldn't have panned left because there was a factory, and couldn't have panned right because of a windmill, since it was a period piece. Many many famous shots from movies are like this, done out of necessity to hide something or to disguise something to make it appear in a matter different from what is really there, for instance with a lot of forced perspective shots.

 

~KB

 

If I remember properly, that was actually Sidney Lumet asking Akira Kurosawa the question about the shot. Sidney Lumet talks about it in his book, Making Movies.

[Bill DiPietra]

Absolutely. However, I differ about film theory. A lot of film students get too big headed about it sometimes, to the point where they believe they can construct and plan every shot perfectly like a math forumla, using film theory. You always hear these big headed discussions on student film sets "Like Orson Welles did in... Like Stanley Kubrick did in... Like Martin Scorsese did in..." and everyone's throwing around buzzwords like they're some big shots. They don't think about the meat of what they're doing, they think more about style.

 

Very true. I did the same with some of my stuff in college. But if you have students who are willing to learn and teachers who are willing to impart the fundamentals, it can work. Often times it is simply a matter of age and being overly eager. Once they have the camera in their hands, they just want to shoot. WHY they are shooting something and how becomes less and less of a factor, so they wind up missing the point enitrely.

 

More film students need to just sit back and watch the masters: Eisenstein, Bergman, Kubrick, Fellini, Godard, etc. And in order for them not to focus merely on the styles of the respective filmmakers, theory classes need to go more in-depth by examining the psychologies, philosophies and social themes that surrounded the films. Theory classes like this will help students to bridge the gap between film and everyday life. In that sense, it will help to make student filmmakers more disciplined before they even graduate. Maybe they'll even start to make films of substance...

[GeorgeSelinsky]

More film students need to just sit back and watch the masters: Eisenstein, Bergman, Kubrick, Fellini, Godard, etc. And in order for them not to focus merely on the styles of the respective filmmakers, theory classes need to go more in-depth by examining the psychologies, philosophies and social themes that surrounded the films. Theory classes like this will help students to bridge the gap between film and everyday life.

 

I think that film schools are never truly going to be able to address the issues that affect film students. You might say, kids will be kids. I've seen plenty of film theory classes where they discuss philosophy and social themes - more than you can shake a stick at. Plenty of production teachers try to impart practical knowlege. But the problem is that you can't cram in the knowlege that can come through experience only, hence the reason why after medical school students are out doing internships and residencies before they can get their license.

 

Film school helped me do one thing which was very critical - it made me think in the right categories. It taught me what to look for, how to take apart a film, how to understand what is going on. It taught me how to deal with the basics of shooting, what is happening on the set, what needs attention, what you can potentially do with the right resources. It taught me that there is something called "professionalism". Like our first camera teacher, a succesful DP said "Guys, out of focus images or improper exposure - no excuse." It developed the inner critic.

 

The problem is the youthful arrogance, the impatience, the desire to bypass the "in between filmschool and first successful feature" phase and go straight for the gold. I'll never forget one kid, a good guy but very ambitious, shot his own Super 16 feature in between his Junior and Senior year at filmschool. As many other kids there, he was born with money. I met him after he finished the feature, he was back to basics taking a class on how to direct a 15 minute short film.

 

Another kid, a foreign student, was a real winner. This guy had money, had people, had drive, but he was totally not together personally. He arrived late to everything, even forgot to come to his own equipment checkout. He had an ego too, which was funny. He had his short shot in Super 16, he had a professional DP, he had an actress flown in from Europe, he hired a writer, you name it. But his film was just DREADFUL!

 

Many of them do it, as you said, "to do it". I myself remember how I was really inspired by Once Upon a Time in the West, and I so badly wanted to do something in that spirit for one of my production classes. But it never worked for me because I really didn't know what I wanted to say, outside of putting across a general mood and feeling that the Leone film had given me. Back in filmschool I myself didn't really know what I wanted to say. I had sketches, feelings, ideas, but no concrete "meat" to serve. That changed with time, and now thank God I am not so much concerned about what to say, but more how exactly to go about it, and what specifically to do. It's certainly a much better and secure feeling.

 

In my memory the most succesful film students have always been those who really had something strong to put across that they cared about. That, coupled with their talent and abilities, was what made their work stand out.

 

End of rant ;)

Edited November 4, 2007 by GeorgeSelinsky

[Bill DiPietra]

Well said, George.

Edited November 4, 2007 by Bill DiPietra

[Veronica Burke]

Haha very true!

Well here's another quesion..is it harder to break into the industry (particularly in the grip/lighting department) if you're a girl?

Any girls on the forum who have a story to tell on how they're going in the industry?

 

Well I'm still in school, but it has been a bit of a struggle for me. My Camera Seminar teacher once said, "If you haven't been lifting heavy bales of hay you're whole life, you need to start working out now" because the equipment is so heavy. She said this to everyone in the class, but I think it was intended for us girls because the men are stronger, and my physical strength is a real problem for me so I've been trying to work out whenever possible. I also noticed in my Lighting class that men like to pretty much take the bread out of our hands when it comes to lighting and grip work :(

[Veronica Burke]

Hey, it wasn't until about three years ago, after I shot 25 features and got into the ASC, that my mom stopped pestering me to go back to school and get an Engineering degree and then a real job... Not that it wasn't good advice.

 

I'm not even done with school yet, and my parents are already like "Are you sure you want to do this?", "Why?", and "Why don't you do still photography instead? The equipment is much lighter." Here we go... :rolleyes:

[Walter Graff]

This may not sound politically correct but I am not politically correct. It is much tougher for a women to work in this craft side of the business. I will also add that I was one of the first to hire women in such roles as far as I know in my circle. I trained about 10 over the years in the grip and electric department. Overall I found that as long a as girl kept up with what I perceived a guy should, I had no problem. When I was afraid of asking a girl if she could help move a riser and such, she probably didn't belong in that department. Male ego is big on a set so the more a girl simply wasn't a girl in terms of the way she acted, and the more I looked at here (in this department) as a guy the better for me and her.

[Walter Graff]

Stagehand Job Description, Career as a Stagehand, Salary, Employment

Education and Training: None

Salary: Varies?see profile

Employment Outlook: Poor

 

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, stagehands, grips, and set-up workers earn a median hourly salary of $9.79.

 

 

Broadcast Technician Job Description, Career as a Broadcast Technician,

Education and Training: High school plus training

Salary: Median?$28,010 per year

Employment Outlook: Fair

 

 

That said, many folks who study one endeavor in school never get a job in that field and end up finding another career, hence why it important to study a variety of courses in college.

 

More below:

 

http://careers.stateuniversity.com/pages/1...a-Operator.html

 

http://careers.stateuniversity.com/pages/1...Technician.html

 

http://careers.stateuniversity.com/pages/1...o-Producer.html

 

http://careers.stateuniversity.com/pages/132/Producer.html

[Guest]

"but I think it was intended for us girls because the men are stronger, and my physical strength is a real problem for me so I've been trying to work out whenever possible. I also noticed in my Lighting class that men like to pretty much take the bread out of our hands when it comes to lighting and grip work"

 

Men have about 1 million more red blood cells in a drop of blood than women do. This allows men to do tough physical labour for a longer period of time. In jobs that require heavy lifting over a long shift, like grip and lighting, men will always have a clear physical advantage. No matter how you slice it the male body is better suited to this kind of work.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think women can do a lot, if I was an American I'd be first in line to vote for Hilary Clinton. With enthusiasm!

 

But there are limitations in jobs that require heavy physical labour, this fact can't be escaped.

 

No matter how much a woman works out, her body will still have less red blood cells than a man's.

 

R,

[David Mullen ASC]

It's one thing to make generalizations, but the reality is that there are some woman out there who are just as physically capable as some men are to do a certain job, whether in grip, electric, or camera, and for those particularly strong/fit women, there should be no impediment to being hired if they are able to do the job.

 

Sure, I doubt we'll see a day with grip crews that are regularly 50/50 in terms of men vs. women representation, but certainly in the camera side of things, I've seen all-female camera crews do just fine with modern equipment, certainly better than I would do! (Actually, I suspect that the electric department does more heavy lifting in general than the grip department... ever try to put an 18K HMI on a stand? Carry banded cable?)

 

People should be judged individually as to their fitness for the job, not based on generalizations regarding their sex or race, whatever.

[Hal Smith]

Well I'm still in school, but it has been a bit of a struggle for me. My Camera Seminar teacher once said, "If you haven't been lifting heavy bales of hay you're whole life, you need to start working out now" because the equipment is so heavy. .........I also noticed in my Lighting class that men like to pretty much take the bread out of our hands when it comes to lighting and grip work :(

Go to your school's fitness center and have a talk with a Trainer about how you can improve your strength. Unless you've got a serious physical impairment you'll be able to train yourself up to the point where you can do just about anything required on a set. You might not make gorilla status but you'll be a lot stronger than many men.

 

Think of the fun you'll have the first time you say "let me handle that" - get that "male" look - and proceed to throw 150# up on the truck.

[Delphine Menoret]

[quote name='Hal Smith' date='Nov 4 2007, 10:24 PM' post='201965You might not make gorilla status but you'll be a lot stronger than many men.

Think of the fun you'll have the first time you say "let me handle that" - get that "male" look - and proceed to throw 150# up on the truck.

May all the boys say that!

[K Borowski]

People should be judged individually as to their fitness for the job, not based on generalizations regarding their sex or race, whatever.

 

I believe this is known as "stereotyping", and I'm pretty sure there was a law passed against it in 1964 ;)

 

Now, on the other hand, look at the NFL. It's 100% male. That's nothing to knock women, but in labor-intensive jobs men, for better or for worse, do generally have an advantage over women for strength.

 

On the other hand, I'm sure that the woman who posted about throwing cable in a truck could even more easily throw ME into the truck! I'm not a big guy by any means and would be just as disadvantaged physically as other men of smaller stature in getting a job, if not more so, than some of the women posting here as to how difficult it is for them.

 

Sorry, there's only so much we can do with changing the way God has made us, even if we work out every day and run a marathon to be in the best possible shape.

 

~KB

[Darryl Richard Humber]

Stagehand Job Description, Career as a Stagehand, Salary, Employment

Education and Training: None

Salary: Varies?see profile

Employment Outlook: Poor

 

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, stagehands, grips, and set-up workers earn a median hourly salary of $9.79.

 

 

Stagehands and grips are entirely different animals. A lot grips I know won't take a job for less than 23.00 an hour. One of the best grips I've ever worked with was a woman.

[Scott Fritzshall]

Well I'm still in school, but it has been a bit of a struggle for me. My Camera Seminar teacher once said, "If you haven't been lifting heavy bales of hay you're whole life, you need to start working out now" because the equipment is so heavy. She said this to everyone in the class, but I think it was intended for us girls because the men are stronger, and my physical strength is a real problem for me so I've been trying to work out whenever possible. I also noticed in my Lighting class that men like to pretty much take the bread out of our hands when it comes to lighting and grip work :(

Hey, I just noticed you are in Chicago. Do you go to Columbia by any chance?

[Veronica Burke]

Think of the fun you'll have the first time you say "let me handle that" - get that "male" look - and proceed to throw 150# up on the truck.

 

:lol: :lol: I look forward to that day.

[Jess Haas]

I also noticed in my Lighting class that men like to pretty much take the bread out of our hands when it comes to lighting and grip work :(

There is a saying that is very important when it comes to grip electric work. Work smarter not harder. Yes you could throw 2 50 pound sticks of banded on your shoulders and hump them to set, but you can also throw 5 sticks of banded in a cart and do more work in less time. I have done a lot of both and I much prefer the later. While a certain level of physical strength is important knowledge and skill are as well. A big guy who likes to show off his strength often gets less done in the same amount of time as a smart girl. I gaffed a feature and at one point my entire grip/electric crew (besides myself) was female. I didn't think twice about asking them to do anything I needed because I knew that they were capable of getting it done. I have noticed that most woman working as grips or electricians feel the need to prove that they can do it and as a result work a hell of a lot harder than most people.

 

With any crew I find that it is useful to have people working with you that have various skills and strengths. Sometimes having the giant linebacker who can carry huge pieces of gear by himself is useful, but there are also plenty of times where a smaller person can get in places and do things that he never could.

 

If you want to do lighting and grip work but feel that guys are not giving you a chance then don't let them do that. It may take some perseverance but if you are smart and a hard worker then you can do it.

 

~Jess

[Jess Haas]

Hello,

So yes, now that you've finished film school where do you go from here? Anyone have any stories of how they got start in the biz? What's your advice for starting up?

Cheers.

If you are finishing film school and start asking yourself "what next?" then it is already too late. I quit my day job and started working exclusively in film my junior year of college. Of course that made it a bit difficult to graduate, but the question of "what are you going to do after you graduate?" becomes a bit silly when you are already getting paid to work in film. The only reason I was able to do that was because I took every chance I could to get on set and gain experience right from the beginning. Working on student films can be good experience, but there is nothing stopping film students from getting out into the real world to gain experience and connections before they even start film school. It worked well for me, although I did turn a 4 year program into five and a half.....

 

Haha very true!

Well here's another quesion..is it harder to break into the industry (particularly in the grip/lighting department) if you're a girl?

It takes a lot of hard work for anyone to break into the industry. There are some jobs that are extremely underrepresented, but I would say that there have been enough successful woman to prove that a determined and skilled woman can do it.

 

I have heard a lot of people make excuses for not trying. Don't use being a girl as an excuse because if you have what it takes then you can do it.

 

I have worked with a few woman grips electricians. There are not a lot of them around here but there are some that I have seen do an excellent job who seem to be successful.

 

~Jess