Should I telecine S16 to anamorphic DVCam?

Theo Lipfert · November 20, 2004

Hello: I have read through dozens of posts (and many replies by David Mullen and others) but am still having trouble with a workflow question. Sorry if this is kinda basic.

I will be shooting a short on Super16 and editing on FCP. The intended audience will be festivals and later, home-made DVDs. I am (obviously) hoping for the best, "film-like" image, but have experienced a huge variety of projection standards at festivals.

Most festivals I attend are projecting BetaSP for their shorts programs. It seems many times like the festival either has two projectors (one set to 4:3, one 16:9) or the projectors are reading a 16:9 flag and switching the throw of the lens. (Is this possible?)

Is there a workflow which would preserve the most information from S16 through DVCam to BetaSP without letterboxing a 4:3 image? Is this anamorphic telecine? Can you do that from S16 to DVCam?

In other words, how do I preserve the 16:9 of the super 16 if my final delivery format is BetaSP? Is this just a question of trusting the projectionist will flip a switch to project an anamorphic BetaSP image correctly? I know in authoring DVDs you can indicate the 16:9 format to be detected (hopefully) by the player.

I do also have access to HDCam decks and could downconvert to DVCam if that would help. I think the telecine cost may be prohibitive, so I have even thought of first editing with a one-light cheap DVCam telecine, then telecining selects to HDCam.

Please understand this film is financed through change found in couch cushions!

Thanks for any advice.

Theo Lipfert

Bozeman, MT

Phil Rhodes · November 20, 2004

Hi,

> It seems many times like the festival either has two projectors (one set to 4:3,

> one 16:9) or the projectors are reading a 16:9 flag and switching the throw of

> the lens. (Is this possible?)

It's possible that they're reading information out of the frame (that's what the white dashes are at the upper left side of a typical DV/DVCAM frame) but it's just as likely simply someone throwing a switch. It's unlikely to be an optical switch - it'd be lovely if all the projectors in the world had an optional anamorphic projection lens which would swing in and out at the touch of a button, but unfortunately most of them just letterbox the 16:9 image into their main projection area, or if it's a native widescreen projector, pillarbox the 4:3 into that. This is bad for two reasons: first, the resampling is often really bad, introducing nasty jagged edges on diagonals and causing various aliasing artifacts, and secondly you lose the effective brightness and image size that's now being taken up with black bars. Highly non optimal - try and get 16:9 material shown on a 16:9 projector, and vice versa. The standard of digital projection is often abysmal, nobody seems to take it as seriously as projecting 35mm. I think it may be due to the fact that it is actually possible to project digital stuff badly, whereas with 35mm you don't have any option but the high dynamic range filter technology that's embedded in the print.

> Is there a workflow which would preserve the most information from S16

> through DVCam to BetaSP without letterboxing a 4:3 image?

Sure, just deal with it all as anamorphic video, and try your hardest not to go to betaSP. If you post exclusively on DVCAM, do your grading at transfer and make the smallest possible additional changes to the image (cuts, dissolves, overlaid titles) you can expect a very creditable standard-def result.

> Is this anamorphic telecine?

Yes.

> Can you do that from S16 to DVCam?

You'd be nuts not to.

The choice of delivery format is crucial. If you can get it projected from a component DVCAM deck such as a DSR-1800, that's got the potential to look considerably better than an equivalent Beta SP dub. If the choice is between a BVW-series Beta SP deck via component, and a DSR-11 via S-video, then that's a more difficult choice. Theoretically your image will look noticeably better from miniDV, since you can go there without having to recompress, but if that miniDV deck is hooked up to the projector via someone's audio-grade cables on a composite video output, then it's going to look rancid.

> Is this just a question of trusting the projectionist will flip a switch to project an

> anamorphic BetaSP image correctly?

Very probably, and astonishingly people do get this wrong. I tend to put a lineup chart at the head of the tape with a circle and the words "if this isn't circular, you are doing something wrong". DVCAM decks often create the encoded dashes, but it's touch and go as to whether most equipment will even detect them.

> I do also have access to HDCam decks and could downconvert to DVCam if that

> would help.

Well, if you can post the entire thing as HD, then that's obviously going to look very much better. There's no future in transferring it to HD and downconverting from that - in fact, that would lose you some in the HDCAM compression on top of the DVCAM compression - unless you can have the HD conformed to it later. Personally if that were me and I had access to an HD deck, I'd be looking into obtaining a Kona HD card and onlining it to HDCAM myself - you don't even need fast drives for most of the work, you can let some desktop machine chug through it.

Phil

Theo Lipfert · November 21, 2004

Thanks so much for the informative response!

<snip>Personally if that were me and I had access to an HD deck, I'd be looking into obtaining a Kona HD card and onlining it to HDCAM myself - you don't even need fast drives for most of the work, you can let some desktop machine chug through it.<snip>

And I don't need a raid? I only have a G5 dual 1.8 -- but I guess I could do an offline first, then recapture through the Kona. What about Aurora Igniter? What is the cheapest way to capture HDCam if I don't need the reverse telecine function since I will, for the time being, be finishing in video of one sort or another?

Thank you for your help. I really appreciate it!

Theo

Bozeman, Montana

Phil Rhodes · November 21, 2004

Hi,

> And I don't need a raid?

You only need fast drives to capture it and put it back out - you can do all your online rendering at any speed you like. You may even find some facility that's willing to do the capture for you.

Do ensure you have all of the timecode, EDL and compatibility issues sorted first, though - you can end up with a lot of captured data you can't use if you don't have the right metadata.

Phil

Theo Lipfert · November 21, 2004

Thanks for your help. I will post when I get it all sorted out and installed.

Best,

Theo

radar71 · December 5, 2004

If you're shooting S16 you should transfer to the highest quality tape around. Digibeta should do. If you put the telecined S16 to DVCAM, regardless of large or small format, you're wasting all the money and effort that went into shooting film in the first place because it's going to compress the image and you'll get artifacting, you may as well shoot on DVCAM to begin with.

I directed a music video (www.momentmachine.com it's "The Power of Love") where we shot S16 and went to digibeta. since i was editing and compositing on FCP and AFX i needed to figure out how to get that digibeta into the computer. I had a friend do it who is an editor. eventually we got it into a good format for me, i had to download a quicktime codec. generally you'll want it to be in apple uncompressed 8 or 10 bit codec. to run uncompressed i have a G5 with 2 internal drives raided. that's it. Hope i reach you before you put that stuff through the DV pipe!