Baking Negatives?

[Leon Rodriguez]

I recently read something on CML about Harris Savides baking his negatives for a particular look. This is intriguing. Does anybody know:

 

1.) What happens to the structure of the negative during the process?

2.) Films to reference for this look?

3.) What is the actual process for an even temperature exposure without affecting the celluloid structure?

4.) What is the visual result of a negative properly 'baked'?

[David Mullen ASC]

I would think that it would accelerate the aging process, since baking is how they test the longevity of film dyes. So you'd probably see a loss of yellow dye first, causing shadows to shift bluer than the highlights, blacks to be milkier, etc.

[Leon Rodriguez]

Yeah, makes sense. Interesting, I'm trying to visualize why that would be a desirable effect. As I think about it, I'm curious about heat and potential fogging. Maybe that's also part of the effect. If so, I guess you'd have to push a stop or more. I'd like to see this. Do think the granularity would be affected?

[Wendell_Greene]

Savides he baked part of the negative on "The Yards", although I don't which scenes. I remember an interview with the film's director, James Gray, who said Savides put the negative in the oven for 15 minutes at 110 degrees.

 

I recall Director Mark Romanek [who works quite frequently with Savides] did the same thing for the Nine Inch Nails video for "Closer" but after baking the negative he went a step further by adding lime juice to the developed negative, the acidity of the lime eating away at the emulsion, so if you remember that video, you'll see what he ended up with was a look similar to what happens when you view portions of older cellulose acetate and nitrate films which have started to decay as the acid ate aways at the dyes and the base of the film destroying the images -- what is known as "Vinegar syndrome".

[GeorgeSelinsky]

Savides he baked part of the negative on "The Yards", although I don't which scenes.  I remember an interview with the film's director, James Gray, who said Savides put the negative in the oven for 15 minutes at 110 degrees.

 

I recall Director Mark Romanek [who works quite frequently with Savides] did the same thing for the Nine Inch Nails video for "Closer" but after baking the negative he went a step further by adding lime juice to the developed negative,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

God, what people are up to these days just to get a different look! I bet you anything we're not so far away before we see "Neg baking" pop up as the most FAQ on the forum, bypassing ENR and cross processing. Anyone care to write the first negative cookbook? We can even develop it into a crazy canabalistic ritual perhaps where all the outtakes have to be cooked and eaten by those responsible for the mistake. I doubt Kubrick would have enjoyed that ritual...

 

:P

[Wendell_Greene]

We can even develop it into a crazy canabalistic ritual perhaps where all the outtakes have to be cooked and eaten by those responsible for the mistake.

:P

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I can see the menu at the craft services tent already: :)

 

Red Dragon Special

Baked 7218 with glazed double CTO

Fava Beans

Chianti

 

Low Con Meal aka "The Northfork "

Sauteed Fuji 400 (flashed to perfection)

Northern Beans

Angel's Food Cake

[David Mullen ASC]

I can't imagine how you'd bake 10,000' for a cut feature negative, nor any studio that would let you do it. Imagine the conversation with the insurance company if anything went wrong: "you did WHAT?"

[Wendell_Greene]

James Gray Interview

 

 

Anyway, back to your film.[The Yards] It had the marked appearance of a period piece.

 

There's a variety of reasons for that. I was after a very painterly look and so with the stocks today feeling like they are in constant combat with video, they've done everything they can to make the stocks look better - the blackest blacks, the deepest colours etc. They are trying to differentiate stock from video - which is fine but what I learnt as a painter is that you never squeeze black paint out of the tube and brush it straight onto the canvas. You don't do that because that doesn't exist in real life, you always have to mix it with a brown or a blue because black absorbs light. It doesn't exist in real life unless you are sitting in a dark room with the door closed, that isn't a painting. So, in order to get that painterly look we had to break the back of the film. We did a lot of screwy things, we baked the film at 110 degrees for 15 minutes which broke down the film's ability to form the sharpest picture. It gave it almost a period look because the stock looks more like it used to look, it looks older.

 

 

Who's idea was that?

 

 

 

That was Harris' idea from music video, it's a very iffy thing to do but we did loads of tests and we wound up with a look that I was very happy with, we'd beaten up the film so much that it has a painterly quality. It looks period but what you don't realise is that there are whole colour schemes that become dated. You don't think of colours as having a certain period value but when you eliminate blue from the palette you get a colour scheme that looks as period as when Gordon Willis and Vittorio Storara were doing it in the early 1970's. If you look at The Conformist that's clearly the strategy they use so all of a sudden it started to look like an early 70's movie.

 

It looks Godfather.

 

Of course, it was partially intentional and partially unintentional. When you've got James Caan sitting in a dark brown room with top light it's an unbelievable resemblance to The Godfather. Really, The Godfathers predecessors, in terms of that look, were the conformists, I'm certain they used that look so we watched The Godfather, particularly Part II which I think is one of the best looking films ever made, and we studied the conformists. Gordon Willis freely admits to ripping off Hopper left and right, so it?s really the same series of influences.

Edited November 29, 2004 by Wendell_Greene

[J. Lamar King IMPOSTOR]

I had a photography teacher in school who would bake those one time use cameras. I would agree with the statement "...which broke down the film's ability to form the sharpest picture. It gave it almost a period look because the stock looks more like it used to look, it looks older." That's exactly the effect. He would do that as well as we would run the C-41 machine with water instead of bleach.

 

I've left film in a hot car for a week on purpose before shooting it and it has the same effect. Especially noticeable on cross-process reversal. Some of that gray market Kodak still film has obviously been heated up during shipping because it often exhibits these same qualities.

[Leon Rodriguez]

I'm cured. I think this process will go on a long list of tricks I can live without, although I'm sure in the right hands, it has it's place in the artistic vocabulary of photographic expression, I will probably continue to survive without it. Thanks for the help, guys. It was worth the foray into the unknown.

[K Borowski]

Oh, so this is done pre-development then? I thought everyone was talking about heating film up after it was already developed. I wouldn't have thought that a mere 15 minutes at 110°F would be enough to change the imaging characteristics of a film. Was this for a very very subtle effect? I mean how is it that people can take sharp photographs in the desert where the temperature is like that all the time? If only 15 minutes already starts to produce changes, what would film kept at that temperature for hours or days look like?

 

Regards.

~Karl Borowski

[J. Lamar King IMPOSTOR]

I would classify it as subtle. I think what happens is the emulsion gets soft then doesn't 'set up' right. So it changes the way the light is focused in the various layers. Film won't get that hot generally if you're shooting in the sun. It takes a quick very concentrated heat.

 

As with all these crazy things, just do some tests.

[John Pytlak RIP]

Prolonged exposure of color negative film raw stock to heat will produce effects similar to outdated film: loss of contrast, increase in fog level, increase in graininess. Excessive heat may actually drive moisture out of the emulsion, causing physical effects like ferrotyping or excessive brittleness.

 

If you decide to "bake" film to get a particular look, definitely TEST what you plan to do with the actual film type you intend to use.

 

It makes a film engineer go :wacko: