To Buy or not, to shoot FILM or not

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

> Well, in the beginning any opportunity to shoot film and have someone else

> cover the stock and lab tab is a good thing.

 

Hah, yeah, right, as if. This very rarely happens at all here, and even when it does, usually some very experienced guy will do it because there's so little work. If something like that came up I'd expect someone like Mr. Frisch to do it, not suggesting he would personally, but someone with that sort of large amount of experience. Such productions are emphatically not open to people like me, simply because the investment is so large.

 

Phil

[GeorgeSelinsky]

Hah, yeah, right, as if. This very rarely happens at all here, and even when it does, usually some very experienced guy will do it because there's so little work.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

When I was in film school it was standard fare, each crew would have one director, one camera operator/DP, one gaffer/assistant. Of course I'd never let anyone touch the camera on my shoots, nasty fellow I was :D

 

You can team up with anyone who is doing short films. We did short B&W films that were 2 - 5 minutes long, without sound. That's certainly enough to start getting your act together. Most of these kids won't even go into filmmaking, they're just trying it out, and many of them are scared of touching the camera. You're shooting B&W reversal. Cheap stuff. Then some kids start getting more ambitious, trying to use color negative and using various crazy means of doing sync (including some bad post-dubbing, resulting in some hillarious films). I've had some kids take me on after I talked to them and showed them that I knew a few things about cinematography. They didn't even need to see a reel - and as a matter of fact throughout filmschool I never had one, period.

 

One girl asked me to film right after I came out of my cinematography final. I saw her with a reflex Bolex and started asking her about it. She saw from the conversation that I knew my stuff, and then told me she badly needed some drive-by footage and asked if I could give her a hand. I got in a cab with her and we started driving up to the lab. I filmed some driveby's with her Bolex on B&W reversal, having to almost guess the exposure in some cases as her built in lightmeter was dodgy. I then got off and went to the train station which was right by the lab she dropped the film off to. Very efficient use of time, I got a free lift to the station, she got a free DP for fifteen minutes :)

 

You would be surprised what complete loosers get behind cameras. I've seen footage shot by "DP's" who can't light, can't even focus, and don't know what a tripod is. One girl got a DP who - this totally shocked the hell out of us when we saw the dailies - kept rolling as the soundman went on his knees chasing after an actor in the shot. We had no idea what this was - on set politics (possibly a vendetta) is the only explanation outside of complete incompetence.

 

If you want to shoot film on someone else's coin, go find some film students. If you give them even a cent of an idea that you know what the hell you're doing they will take you on - believe me, many of them don't want to touch the camera and would be glad to have it in the hands of a committed learner who's nice to work with. Of course, once they get comfortable some will begin micromanaging but that's a frequent occurance you have to be ready for.

 

- G.

Edited December 5, 2004 by GeorgeSelinsky

[Tim Tyler]

MOS cameras will produce a picture as good as a sync camera can. Your job is to build a reel which looks good

 

I think MOS is a better choice if you're working for yourself, shooting on your own time, building your own reel.

 

But you'll have a problem getting hired as a DP on new filmmaker shoots if you don't have a quiet sync camera. Well, maybe you won't have a 'problem', but you'll have more choices with a non-MOS camera.

 

The CP16 is a very good recomendation. If you get one, try to find the CP primes and don't shoot wide open unless necessary.

 

IMO, the value of your decision is not necessarily the reel you'll get from working on these films, but the relationships you'll form.

[GeorgeSelinsky]

not necessarily the reel you'll get from working on these films, but the relationships you'll form.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think the toughest thing is forming the right relationships with the right people. You really have so many people out there making films that are going to disappear tomorrow. You can waste months of your time, even more, making a film with a total nobody who will go nowhere.

 

One has to strike a balance between finding the right people and building relationships with them, and building up your reel of material so you become a more attractive package yourself. I think getting a camera package to attract work to you is not a good idea. I always attracted work because of who I was, never because of equipment. The kinds of assignments where choices are made over such considerations are not as likely, in my view, to take a person as far - although I'm sure I can be very wrong here. Maybe someone else will offer a perspective.

 

I also agree it is hard to get hired with an MOS package alone of course, but having one is a great for getting things like pickup shots, that can save a lot of trouble for a production. Of course, it helps to have a matching set of lenses but there are enoguh cases when you can get away without that (unless you have lenses made by the Coca Cola Co.)

 

- G.

[Tim Tyler]

One has to strike a balance between finding the right people and building relationships with them, and building up your reel of material so you become a more attractive package yourself.

 

I agree.

 

I think owning a nice basic camera package in the right market (NYC, LA, big city) allows the newbie-DP to be picky and choosy. Most new directors will jump at the chance to get a DP with camera for the same or less than a pro camera rental alone. Plus they won't need insurance. If you think your time will be wasted, just say no (or ask for more $$).

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

I've found film students to be a pretty poor source of experience, much less employment. It might just be me - certainly even the most inexperienced first-year film student is going to be more competent to shoot film than I am - but I usually find they want to do it themselves if they're paying that much for the course.

 

Phil

[GeorgeSelinsky]

Someone like me always did the camera work myself, but that's because I loved cinematography period - it had nothing to do with whether I was or was not taking a class. Regardless of how much or how little one pays for class (and the kids at NYU pay a LOT), that doesn't change the fact that they're learning, and that many are apprehensive about being their own DP's (as well as many of them should be).

 

- G.

[John Pytlak RIP]

The Kodak website does have an entire section devoted to 16mm production:

 

http://www.kodak.com/go/16mm

 

Nice overview of cameras:

 

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/16mm/cam...d=0.1.4.9&lc=en

 

And films:

 

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/16mm/pro...d=0.1.4.5&lc=en

 

Don't forget the ACVL Manual:

 

http://www.acvl.org/manual.htm

[Matt Wells]

Hi,

 

No, prices aren't comparable. Part of the problem in London is that there's no mid-level transfer places - it's either Framestore CFC, or point a camera at a screen in someone's garage. There is no middle option and therefore getting a video image costs thousands - quite literally. Prices here are at least three times what you quoted, and that's per hour with a three-hour minimum or whatever. It is actually cheaper to fly to New York, stay at a very nice hotel, get the transfer done, have a weekend in the BIg Apple and fly home, and you're still hundreds better off. I have no idea how any telecine transfer house in London stays in business.

Phil

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm sorry but you are just talking utter rubbish.

 

Telecine houses stay in business because the work is there. Please try telephoning somewhere like Soho Images and tell them you are making a low budget short / music video and you want some 16mm processed, prepped, and transfered. You will be able to negotiate a very keen deal. If you cant then you arn't trying very hard.

 

Soho even have a person dedicated to dealing with the "low budgeters".

 

I regularly use a telecine facility in Birmingham. The last stuff he did for me consisted of:

 

- 1 hour running time in super8: £120

- tape £included

- and they currently have some more 8 and some 16mm

- they use a Rank Cintel of course.

 

I would say for everything else there's Mastercard, but you don't need one.

 

I'm sorry to be so blunt.

 

Matt

[Rik Andino]

My advice to you would be to go for it, if you had the experience

and/or were being offered the job beforehand,

but if that's not the case maybe you should reconsider.

 

If you're buying a film camera to do your own projects,

unless you do more than three project a year, you're wasting your investment.

Film cameras don't like to sit around and not be used.

You still have to maintain a stored camera

and if you're not making the money it can be costly.

 

If you want to learn filmmaking buy a decently priced DV camera.

You'll see more action with a DV camera

Since there are more things to shoot on video than on films.

(You can make money recording weddings, industrials, concerts etc...)

Most of the things shot on S16 are Narrative Films and HighEnd Television

which don't shoot everyday

and (especially in NYC) you must compete agressively to land a decent project.

 

You can shoot your short student films on DV for practice.

and if you want to practice on Film you can get a very cheap MOS camera

to compliment your DV package.

A K3 runs for far under $1000 (US).

You can also get a bolex for that small amount of money.

 

If you're interested in S8 it's also a good format

to get acquainted with film.

Especially now that Kodak introduced it's Vision series for S8.

A Bolex can be also good for shooting Double 8 (a form of S8).

You should check that out.

 

In a couple of years if your experience improves

And you're still interested in the industry you can upgrade to an S16 camera

And you'll have the experience and reputation to reel in the projects.

 

A S16 camera is a business investment (just like buying a trailer truck).

You should only invest your money in one if your getting the jobs.

If your an amatuer or a hobbyist just learning

you should seek other cheaper alternatives, that'll help you in the long run.

[John Mastrogiacomo]

I would say "just do it" if you want to.

 

I was a programmer and a systems analyst for 25 years but I always wanted to do video. So one day I just said "screw it" and quit my job. I bought some VHS stuff and started doing videos for free for my friends and then started charging people. For the last 20 years I've plowed every extra penny I have made plus a lot more into my business. Today, I have the nicest post-production facility in Nevada. Believe me, it wasn't easy. I've maxed out credit cards, mortgated my house and sold my soul to the devil to get what I wanted.

 

You can do what ever you want. You just can't be afraid to take a chance. I see so many people who want to be in business for themselves but are afraid to spend a nickel of their own money.

 

When you have everything on the line, you find a way to make it happen. Just make sure you are competent in what you are doing.

 

My mother gave me the best advice I ever heard, "No balls, no glory!"

 

If you really want to do it, you'll find a way to make it work. Good luck! :)

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

> Please try telephoning somewhere like Soho Images and tell them you are making a

> low budget short / music video

 

Have you ever actually done this? If you have, I suspect it was long enough ago for you to have forgotten the response. The comeback I generally get to requests like that is, entirely predictably, a kind of weary dismissal carrying with it all the frustration of taking a dozen calls like this an hour, every hour, every day. This is London, nobody's interested.

 

Phil

[Guest Andy Sparaco]

With the Euro and Pound so strong Process and and Xfer in the USA should be very attractive to folks in UK/Europe. Even with shipping both ways.

 

http://www.tfgtransfer.com/

 

http://www.3516.com/

 

You folks in Europe can take advantage of the weak dollar and re-collect all of the "good" stuff that was sold here in the 90's for bargin basement prices.

[Matt Wells]

Hi,

 

> Please try telephoning somewhere like Soho Images and tell them you are making a

> low budget short / music video

 

Have you ever actually done this? If you have, I suspect it was long enough ago for you to have forgotten the response. The comeback I generally get to requests like that is, entirely predictably, a kind of weary dismissal carrying with it all the frustration of taking a dozen calls like this an hour, every hour, every day. This is London, nobody's interested.

 

Phil

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I put in a call to Soho images a few months ago and I can still remember the professional and prompt response. Len Thornton phoned me back within 10 minutes to quote me on some 16mm. He had never spoken to me before and I had never dealt with Soho Images before.

 

 

I wont post the price here so as not to intrude on any discussion of prices others may have with them, but suffice to say I thought it was keen and they did the work for me - and it was only 600ft (which he knew before phoning me)

 

I don't care how many calls they have each hour - (and they probably don't have that many) they are interested.

 

If you are getting a blank response you need to assert yourself more. You need to sound business like and serious - unfortunately if you sound all arty and like you couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery (which I'm afraid most small time filmsmakers couldn't) then nobody will be interested be they a lab or any other business - and understandably.

 

(by the way I'm not insinuating you are like the above description as I don't know you - I'm just speaking hyperthetically)

 

Matt

[Riku Naskali]

With the Euro and Pound so strong Process and and Xfer in the USA should be very attractive to folks in UK/Europe.  Even with shipping both ways.

That's true. But it's still expensive as hell :ph34r:

[Matt Wells]

With the Euro and Pound so strong Process and and Xfer in the USA should be very attractive to folks in UK/Europe.  Even with shipping both ways.

 

http://www.tfgtransfer.com/

 

http://www.3516.com/

 

You folks in Europe can take advantage of the weak dollar and re-collect all of the "good" stuff that was sold here in the 90's for bargin basement prices.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Dollar is certainly in our favour for those of us in the UK almost 2 to the £ at the moment, but looking at, for example, the prices listed at 3516 to be honest the saving is marginal over what I can get here in London / Birmingham. For example they quote $0.18 per foot for 16mm colour neg process only. I can get it for £0.10p in London fully prepped for telecine, so there is basically no saving, and then you have to factor in shipping cost and risk.

 

Obviously they might negotiate.

 

It is something I have considered though in the past.

 

Matt

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

It's been an intention of mine to go shoot something in LA for a while, based on this situation. I suspect that it might not end up being as much cheaper as it looks like, since you'd need to pay a local filmmaker type to spend a few days ensuring everything was lined up and organised before getting there, but it might be a fun thing to do as well.

 

No idea what the immigration people might think of this, though.

 

Phil