Bell and Howell for Super 16?

[Steven Budden]

Hello,

 

I'm thinking of Buying a newer Bell & Howell for starting 16mm filmmaking. I chose this model as opposed to the bolex because of

 

1. Price

2. Durability

3. Run time

 

Anyway, on researching them I can see that the relatively more recent models can take film with a single perforation. Does this automatically mean if that film is used than it will be Super 16mm? I just wanted to make sure before I bought one. No other adjustments are needed?

 

Thanks!

 

Steven

[John Pytlak RIP]

Hello,

 

I'm thinking of Buying a newer Bell & Howell for starting 16mm filmmaking. I chose this model as opposed to the bolex because of

 

1. Price

2. Durability

3. Run time

 

Anyway, on researching them I can see that the relatively more recent models can take film with a single perforation. Does this automatically mean if that film is used than it will be Super 16mm? I just wanted to make sure before I bought one. No other adjustments are needed?

 

Thanks!

 

Steven

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Using 16mm film perforated 1R (along only one side) of course requires a camera that has sprockets with teeth only along one side, and the pulldown claw and positioning pins likewise only along one side.

 

But if the camera still has a "Regular" 4:3 gate (image area 10.26mm x 7.49mm), the image formed on the film is NOT "Super 16". The image area for Super-16 is specified by standard SMPTE 201M-2001, 12.35mm x 7.42mm, with a centerline 9.00 millimeters from the reference edge (edge of the film on the perforated side).

[Steven Budden]

Thanks!

 

Does anyone use Bell and Howell for super 16mm? Is it able to hold the image steady enough?

 

Steven

[Robert Hughes]

The B&H Filmo 70 in its original (standard 16) state takes fine, steady pictures. But keep in mind that when you file down the gate on any 16mm camera you are milling away metal that was supporting film in the gate, and you stand a chance of increasing image instability. This problem is not limited to the Filmo but is an inherent risk in the modification of any standard 16 camera. That said, rumor on the Internet is that the Filmo is among the easiest of cameras to modify for S16.

 

The old black Filmos are mostly double perf, make sure you get a brown or green one, preferably a model 70 - DL, DR, HL, HR, or KRM. I used to own a single perf 70DA that worked fine.

[Guest Ian Marks]

Ordinarily a Super-16 modification requires recentering the lens mount and modifying the finder to show the correct field of view. The Filmo doesn't have a reflex viewfinder, of course. You might be able to get around the lens mount recentering issue by using a c-mount to Nikon (or other 35mm still camera) adapter. Not an ideal situation, but enough to start playing around with low-dollar Super-16.

[Steven Budden]

Ordinarily a Super-16 modification requires recentering the lens mount and modifying the finder to show the correct field of view. The Filmo doesn't have a reflex viewfinder, of course. You might be able to get around the lens mount recentering issue by using a c-mount to Nikon (or other 35mm still camera) adapter. Not an ideal situation, but enough to start playing around with low-dollar Super-16.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Thanks! Actually, my SBM is being converted as we speak, I was just thinking of a way to put together a cheap super 16 as a second camera. Bell and Howell cut with Bolex? How would that look I wonder?

 

Steven

[Guest Ian Marks]

I always thought it would be fun to put a Peleng 8mm on a Filmo using a C-mount to M42 adapter. It would be a great cheap "Doggycam."

[Dan Salzmann]

I have never seen a Filmo converted to super16. Anyone know who does this modification?

[Bruce McNaughton]

We convert all makes of 16mm camera to S16

 

Super 16 camera conversions

 

Bruce

[Dan Salzmann]

Bruce, have you done a super 16 conversion on a Filmo? If yes can you send a jpeg?

[Patrick Neary]

i wonder if someone (Bruce?) could replace the front turret with a recentered "C"/PL/Nikon/etc. mount (the same way most eyemos are converted to PL or Nikon/Canon mounts) ? Last time i checked eyemo mount replacement was about $1000, so if work on a Filmo was similarly priced, it wouldn't be a bad way to go for grab shots.

 

It seems an easy job to file out or replace one of the viewfinder masks, and just change objectives as you change lenses. Although if you were using PL or similar lenses, they would probably block out most of the viewfinder's view anyway.

[Steven Budden]

Does the conversion to super really decrease image steadiness? Theoretically it makes some sense, but from what I've seen it doesn't seem to.

 

Seems like even with filing out a sliver of the gate, there is still enough on all sides to steady the film.

[Guest Ian Marks]

I think spending a lot of money for a professional Super-16 conversion defeats the purpose of using a Filmo in the first place - They're $75-$150 cameras, after all. On the other hand, it would be great if someone would offer a filed out gate, along with installation instructions, for a reasonable price (with exchange of the original gate, of course). Again, you'd just use a $15 adapter and shoot with an 8mm Peleng or other still camera lens - no worries about lens centering because you've go plenty of coverage this way.

 

Also, there are a lot of Pan Cinor 17-85 zooms with built-in finders out there that I think *might* cover Super-16 (I've heard they do, anyway). I know they're not regarded as very good lenses, but one of these on a Filmo (or other non-reflex C-mount camera, such as the Kodak K100) with a recentered lens mount and filed out gate might make for a cheap (sub-$500) Super-16 camera. I wonder if anyone has ever tried one of these lenses on an Ikonoskop.

[Robert Hughes]

The Filmo S16 conversions I've heard about were simple home jobs - file out the gate and polish the new surface; no recentering or guide machining was done. If you ruin it you're out a $100 camera, if not you've saved about a thousand in fees.

 

Since I've never tried it, my question about S16 conversion film steadiness is theoretical.

 

I've shot with a Pan Cinor 17-85 zoom on an Auricon and was pleasantly suprised at the results. Don't count on a Zeiss quality image, but it's not too bad to use.

[Dan Salzmann]

Does anyone know of a camera tech that has successfully converted a Filmo to super16?

[Guest jeremy edge]

Does anyone know of a camera tech that has successfully converted a Filmo to super16?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I was about to attempt this,but instead ,modded two k3s.i got a clean bill on the 1st one and Im waiting for the footage on the second to come back.Then I might move to finishing the filmo.

 

The gate is easy to get to...so that part is easy...I alread have my gate done.but you also have to file away the part of the camera between the lens and gate so that you dont get any vignetting. For that I would try to seal up with plastic wrap and tape any parts of the camera where little flakes of metal could get into and then just file the metal . I'll post back if I finish mine successfully.im not a tech by the way ,just an experimeter but my first attempt was a perfect job.

 

The other problem is finding lenses to cover super 16.probably a trial and error process.Especially with wide angle which to me seems like what you'd want?

 

You can get wide shots focused at 10 feet to infinity and your acuuracy with framing and focus arent as critical as say with a 50mm lens?

Edited June 1, 2005 by jeremy edge

[Steven Budden]

Again, I'm curious if anyone has ever experienced a decrease in image steadiness after a conversion to super, of a bolex specifically? I guess if the image steadiness did decrease, it would make no sense at all, because on blowing up to 35mm it would look even more unsteady.

 

Also, filming in super16 is ONLY for blow up or digital right? One is no longer able to distrubute the film as 16mm with sound, because there is no space for soundtrack (a) and (B) projectors would need to be modified to even view the whole image?

 

Thanks!

 

Steven

[Robert Hughes]

"Also, filming in super16 is ONLY for blow up or digital right?"

 

Blowup to 35mm or transfer to 16:9 video, as you said. S16 takes away the optical sound track and most projectors don't play S16. But most venues aren't showing as much projected R16 anymore, they either go 35mm or video.

[dm24ig]

I was about to attempt this,but instead ,modded two k3s.i got a clean bill on the 1st one and Im waiting for the footage on the second to come back.Then I might move to finishing the filmo.

 

The gate is easy to get to...so that part is easy...I alread have my gate done.but you also have to file away the part of the camera between the lens and gate so that you dont get any vignetting. For that I would try to seal up with plastic wrap and tape any parts of the camera where little flakes of metal could get into and then just file the metal . I'll post back if I finish mine successfully.im not a tech by the way ,just an experimeter but my first attempt was a perfect job.

 

The other problem is finding lenses to cover super 16.probably a trial and error process.Especially with wide angle which to me seems like what you'd want?

 

You can get wide shots focused at 10 feet to infinity and your acuuracy with framing and focus arent as critical as say with a 50mm lens?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm seriously considering doing one of these conversions on my 70DR. Seems like a pretty simple job to file the gate wider. Any suggestions or advice on what kind of lens I should get to cover super-16? I'm in the process of getting a C-mount to nikon adapter, but I'm a little confused about the kinds of Nikon lenses would fit it - seems like there are different variations??? What other mods do I have to make to the filmo other than the gate? Since the last posts, has anyone done this conversion yet? I'd love to hear about the results.

 

-DM

[Robert Hughes]

I'm considering doing an S16 conversion on my 70DR also. Let us know how yours goes and what if any problems you encounter.

[dm24ig]

I'm considering doing an S16 conversion on my 70DR also. Let us know how yours goes and what if any problems you encounter.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I definitely will keep you posted as I go. I also just learned that a company called INTERNATIONAL CINEMA EQUIPMENT COMPANY - MAGNA TECH in Miami. has acquired all the remaining parts on the Filmo from B&H and Alan Gordon Enterprises, So I emailed them to see if they had any spare film gates. I'd rather work on an extra gate in case I screw the original up. No word from them yet though.

 

-Derek

[Robert Hughes]

Look into the gate of your Filmo from the lens turret. You'll see there is more metal to remove in front of the gate, and it will need to be blacked so as to avoid reflections.

[dm24ig]

Look into the gate of your Filmo from the lens turret. You'll see there is more metal to remove in front of the gate, and it will need to be blacked so as to avoid reflections.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Yes, I just took a close look last night and was going to mention that. Also, other than filing the gate wider, does something need to be done to hole in front of the gate. Shouldn't that be widened as well or is that what you're talking about. Forgive my cluelessness.

 

- Derek

[chris cortez]

Yes, I just took a close look last night and was going to mention that.  Also, other than filing the gate wider, does something need to be done to hole in front of the gate.  Shouldn't that be widened as well or is that what you're talking about.  Forgive my cluelessness.

 

- Derek

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm also interested in whatever anyone finds out about spare parts and in the results of all of your experiments. I have a 70-HR and a full set of switar c-mount AR glass and a mostly-full set of the angenieux c-mounts. And a c-mount to nikon adapter. So surely I can find *something* to cover S16. ;-)

 

I've seen Bolex 3-turret conversions where the lens recentering was done by un-centering the hole that screws the turret plate to the camera, moving the whole thing over a touch, then just using one lens at a time (I.e. lose the ability to spin the turret to access multiple lenses). Is that possible on a Filmo? I think I read that there are mechanical parts attached to the back of the turret...

 

I also have the motor and mag for this thing. I think it would make a super Super16 frankenstein beast.

[Robert Hughes]

The problem with attempting to move the turret over is that the turret spindle is concentric with the shutter blade assembly and turns a simple file & dremel operation into a logistical nightmare. My guess is that, if your stock of C mount lenses don't support an offset S16 format, you'd be better of buying a $30 Nikon F to C mount adapter and use Nikon lenses for your S16 shots.