50's romantic musical look

[Mate Toth]

Greetings fellow Cinematographers,

 

In my upcoming project we would like to create some very thetrical like romantic, kitchy moments from a 1950?s Hollywood musical or Vaudeville theatre- Moulin Rouge.

It is planned to be a studio based piece, using painted backdrops and back projection and stage tricks to create a theatrical feel.

 

I plan to give a tableau photography feel to the piece and even though we will shoot it on S16mm (ending up with a video positive) I would go 1:2.35 cinemascope ratio to maintain the Technicolor feel. (There are no anamorhpic lenses on S16mm aren't they? So, i just thought of filming with open frame (composing on 1:2.35) and then first thing at telecine is placing the wipes on the top and bottom of the frame. Would that be a visible loss in quality especially on long shots?

 

My considered stocks at the moment are Eastman Ektachrome Reversal 7240, 7250, Kodak Echtachrome 100ASA or perhaps Fuji Negative 125ASA with the intenton of maintaining the desired look at Telecine.

 

In terms of lighting we plan to have significant changes in the lighting set up during takes to enhance to kitchy artificial feel, but still thinking of what light sources (and filters) to use and doing research regarding the appropriate style.

 

Any advices, comment or suggestion on this subject and the above mentioned film stocks are greatly appreciated and a mean of great use.

 

Thanks for your interest in advance,

 

T.Mate

[David Mullen ASC]

Since a 2.35 letterboxed image on a 16x9 or 4x3 recording is smaller vertically than an non-letterboxed image, not wider horizontally, there isn't really a visible loss of resolution because in a sense, you aren't "blowing up" the image, using fewer pixels to fill all the scan lines of the monitor, you are just using part of the signal for black bars.

 

The old VNF Ektachromes are too soft in S16 for a 35mm CinemaScope look, even for a 1950's film stock. I'd use the Ektachrome 100D (7285) if you can find a place that does E6 16mm developing -- otherwise, I'd use a 100 ASA color negative stock. Don't know how you'll get enough exposure for projection on-set though.

[Mate Toth]

Thank you David, could you please explain what E6 processing means?

 

Since it seems I won't have the time to do tests, I also consider your suggestion on a 100ASA negative stock, having more chance to manipulate the look during telecine.

I think of using a 1/2 Soft FX and grad ND filters graduated at the corners of the frame to maintain a more intimate, romantic look.

 

Still doing research on the lighting. W'lle have two-person scenes in front of painted backdrops; I thougt of using fairly big diffused tungstan units (10K) from a distance, a space light from above and small kinos rigged by the lens through a frost frame for close ups.

 

Any suggestion on the units and appropriate lighting style of on these early romantic musicals (An american in Paris, La chapelle) would be truly appreciated.

 

Regards,

 

T.Mate

[David Mullen ASC]

E6 is the processing for all modern color reversal stock except for Kodachrome films. VNF dates back to the 1970's and has just been obsoleted by Kodak. While there are many E6 slide films for sale on the market, only one is available for motion picture work, Ektachrome 100D. But since most E6 film sold is for 35mm stills, there hasn't been a need until now for a 16mm movie processer that handles E6. I've heard Yale Labs may be doing it now.

 

If you aren't experienced, I don't recommend shooting on Ektachrome 100D because the exposures have to be perfect.

 

Soft-FX is fine for close-ups; you might also try Schneider Classic Softs -- the "bubbles" around lights you get sort of remind me of the halation in the old 3-strip Technicolor photographic process.

 

The lighting plan sounds a little modern in its softness. A musical back then would have used a lot of hard frontal key lights from high, plus a lot of hard backlighting.

[Mate Toth]

Many thanks for you help David!!!

 

Getting close to the shooting, our concept has been clearing up; We definitely find 'Singing in the rain' as the best visual refference. To me it seems that no other stocks can deliver that partical look, but reversal film and even though there is no chance for a test, think I just have to go for it and rely on my research...

 

You are right, studying the lighting of 'Singing in the rain' I learnt that they were using hard frontal sources and also hard backlights and the scenes have an evenly lit feel, without much separation of foreground-background (assume reversal stock would not allow for more lattitude.)

 

However, we will have two-people romantic macro scenes in a studio in front of 10x10 canvas backdroups (kitchy sunset, cloudy sky, city landscap etc).

My biggest concern is now applying the appropiate hard lighting style without having the shadows on the backdrop. (Since the couple has to be pretty close to it on full shots without falling out of the set.) Especially shooting on 7285, with 25TASA.

I thought of lighting fontal from above, filling from under (avoiding the thrown of shadows to the backdrop) and using very hard backlights. I would have expose for the evenly lit couples in the foreground and I would light the canvas also evenly from the side and keeping it 1 and a half, two stop under compared to the foreground.

 

Your feedback on this concept would be more that greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks again,

 

Mate

[Christian Appelt]

Most of what we remember as Technicolor musicals were not anamorphic, so I would stick to the original Super 16 aspect ratio. The look you desire depends mainly on color design both in costumes and sets, but you know that from studying the MGM classics.

 

I wouldn't worry too much about shadows, there are plenty in both AMERICAN IN PARIS (in the final dance number you can even see a shadow of the whole camera crane on the cyclorama!) and in SINGIN' IN THE RAIN (IIRC the veil dance number with Cyd Charisse).

 

And don't forget the diffusion on the ladies close ups! :)

Edited December 12, 2004 by Christian Appelt

[Mate Toth]

Thank you for your suggestions,

 

Considering that there is no E6 processing on 7285, I will go for 7240, it is better for me in terms IE too.

Could anyone explain what would be the advantages and disadvantages of having 7240 crossprocessed in compared to going for VNF1 reversal processing?

I am just crazy about the look of reversal stocks now in general and would like to improve my knowledge regarding its ways of processing.

 

Also, I have a bit of a headache with one of the scenes in the story; an aristocratic lady in full white is sitting on a sofa having a chimney sweeper (even his face is totally black) sitting on her lap and it is all happening in front a 10x10 feet light blue backdrop. On a reversal stock...

I'm grateful for any advice.

 

Thanks,

 

Mate

[David Mullen ASC]

7285 would be 100 ASA, not 25 ASA. You might find a place to process it normally; have you called Yale Labs in Burbank?

 

Like I said, don't mess with the old reversal stocks -- too soft & grainy -- and don't cross-process them. The colors and contrast get too weird for what you're trying to do.

 

You might be better off with 100T color negative push-processed one stop for more contrast. I mean, you could try normal VNF Ektachrome and VNF processing, if you don't mind the softness and grain, but Kodak has obsoleted the stocks.

 

You could shoot 7285 and cross-process that in normal ECN2 color neg, meaning you have more options for lab work -- it doesn't get as funky-looking as the VNF stocks do. But it does get REALLY high contrast so you need to be prepared to add a lot of fill light. And some colors do shift in weird directions, going greenish.

 

As for frontal hard lighting producing shadows, well, now you know why it's not as easy as it sounds! Generally the lights were up high and then topped with a flag or barndoors to shadow the light right above the heads, so if the person was standing far enough from the background painting, their shadow should fall on the floor behind them, stopping just short of the backdrop, and the key light never hit the backdrop. Then you could light the background separately. Old movies tried whenever possible to light actors and backgrounds separately for more control, requiring a lot of flagging, snooting, etc.

 

Old 3-strip Techicolor movies were also shot at near wide-open apertures indoors, at around f/2.8, because of the slow-speed of the process. And there were no real wide-angle lenses possible other than some attachments to 35mm lenses to make them wide-angle. However, early CinemaScope movies (shot on Eastmancolor or Anscochrome, not 3-strip) were fairly wide-angle (50mm anamorphic.) Depth of field on these old color films was fairly shallow, but you didn't notice because of the dearth of close-ups.

[David Mullen ASC]

You couldn't have found a more atmospheric shot from the movie? You should pull some frames from "Black Narcissus" -- THAT'S imaginative! (And as Scorsese has pointed out, has some visual simularities to classic Disney animation.) I love the pre-dawn chapel scene at the end with the magenta dawn and cool-cyan shadows.

[Mike Williamson]

I'm going to have to get onboard with David on this one and second Jack Cardiff's work on "Black Narcissus" and of course "The Red Shoes". Easily my favorite uses of Technicolor, quite simply, the guy's a genius. Besides the gorgeous painterly images, I also love Cardiff's brashness and the overall refusal on the Powell & Pressburger sets to comply with rigid Technicolor standards that many productions were subject to. That kind of creative defiance leaves me with a much warmer feeling inside than making sure Uncle Walt could see every dollar at work.

 

There may be other films that are more directly appropriate to the look of 50's musicals, but if you're talking about Technicolor, then Cardiff's work is definitely worth a look if only for comparison's sake.

[David Mullen ASC]

My favorite 3-strip Technicolor photography tends to not be too flat, but when it becomes clear that these cameramen came out of a tradition of b&w photography (Cardiff is sort of a rare exception jumping immediately into color but he draw a lot on paintings.) Atmosphere, atmosphere, atmosphere is what I love in old 3-strip movies like "Gone with the Wind", "Garden of Allah", and all those Powell movies.

 

I also liked colored lighting, such as Leon Shamroy's work in "Forever Amber" and "Leave Her to Heaven". Combine that with shadowy lighting and you have "Gone with the Wind", like the birthing sequence shot in silhouette. Or the ballet sequence in "American in Paris" shot by John Alton. Gorgeous stuff.

 

I also love, but am less excited by, high-key musicals like "Singin' in the Rain". I love the design of the Minelli-directed ones like "American in Paris", "Meet Me in St. Louis", "The Band Wagon" and "The Pirate" (as a movie, I love "Singin in the Rain" more though...) Mostly it's the lushness of color that is intoxicating rather than the frontal lighting (which helps bring out the color, I admit.)

 

Again, there are probably more interesting frames from "Singin In the Rain" you could have picked...

[Mate Toth]

This forum is fantastic, thanks for the interest and for all comments.

[Mate Toth]

Thank for your interest and for all your comments!

 

Just to double check it; would not be the use 7285 within tunstan lighting in a studio 25ASA???

The use of 80A Kodak Wratten filter would take off 2stops as far as I know, but please correct me if I am wrong.

 

Thanks again,

 

Mate

[David Mullen ASC]

No, you're right -- but who in their right minds would do that??? Use HMI lighting. Your actors will melt under tungsten light at 25 ASA levels. You'd need much more powerful tungsten lamps than you would HMI's.

 

I shot a nighttime flashback in "Shadowboxer" on 5285 (no correction filters) rated at 80 ASA in tungsten lighting but I gelled it half-blue for a half-orange look (and it still came out very orange because I cross-processed it.) And the small set got VERY warm! Since I was using a T/4.5 Anamorphic Slant Focus lens and needed at T/5.6 almost at 80 ASA, I was using spotted 2K's and 1K's in a small bedroom gelled Half-Blue. During the summer in Philadelphia... I got a taste of what it was like to shoot in the 1950's, light-level wise.

[David Mullen ASC]

Here's another one of my favorites:

 

 

This anticipates a more "modern" style with the face playing in softer, underexposed cyan fill instead of an obvious key -- although I think Cardiff's inspiration was the color in paintings, not reality.

 

Cardiff's nomination was blocked by American DP's on the nominating committee because they didn't want to see a Brit win two years in a row, and they knew that if "Red Shoes" was nominated for Best Cinematography, it would win. American DP's suffered a major blow to their egos the year before when the b&w cinematography Oscar went to Guy Green for "Great Expectations" and the color one went to Cardiff for "Black Narcissus".

 

One can also see in these frames that Cardiff was still working with elements of b&w lighting style, a late 1930's/early 1940's aesthetic consisting of careful use of shadow patterns and a certain amount of contrast. My favorite 3-strip Technicolor photography has elements of my favorite b&w photography of this period, like the noir work in "Mildred Pierce" or "Casablanca." There aren't a lot of examples since color was mainly reserved for musicals and comedies, so the Technicolor dramas, period films, and fantasies really interest me.

[Mate Toth]

Thank You very much to all fellow DPs joined this toppic, all suggestions truly meant a great use for me!

 

The result is absolutely stunning! The dir and prod are also very happy with it!

 

I eventually shot the piece on 7285 (it was definitely the right choice!) and got it E6 processed at Film and Photo Lab in South Acton, London.

I rated the stock on daylight 125ASA and I used HMI lights up to 12K, the only tungstan units I ended up using were the full blue corrected maxi spacelights above. I ran with 4 fstop and payed special attention on exposure (as always) keeping the stock's lattitude in mind.

During the production I have learnt more than I did in film school a year!

 

Thanks for your help again, drop me a line when you are happen to be in Hungary, I owe you guys a pint!

 

T.Mate

[Mike Williamson]

Anyway, Black Narcicuss and the Powell/Cardiff stuff is very special for me and totally unique to any kind of Technicolor that ever existed, so many rules broken and created (and would become much more prolific post technicolor) that I do cringe at the thought of it being dunked in a thread dedicated to the happy, deliberately artifice heavy world of 50s romantic musicals (which have their own equally valued set of conventions, innovations, tricks and qualities). Real comparing oranges to apples territory!

 

That's very true, I suppose this kind of thread is the worst place to bring up these films because they are very different from the norm. If someone is truly trying to recreate the look of Technicolor musicals than this is a bit off track, and honestly that's why I love it so much. When I hear "Technicolor", the first thing I think of is Powell and Pressburger, I suppose I suggested these as an alternative, because they really are worlds away. I'd agree that some of the Vermeer-esque portraiture in the earlier part of the film is on par with splashier color sections, very naturalistic.

 

On a similar note, I saw "The Leopard" for the first time on Criterion's new DVD, absolutely gorgeous use of Technicolor that's moodier than usual, beautiful use of light and shadow. The softness reminded me of "The Red Shoes". Yay, top light!

 

Mate, glad to hear that you shoot went well, congratulations! Could you post some stills at a later date?

Edited December 20, 2004 by Mike Williamson

[David Mullen ASC]

Certainly most Technicolor musicals were flat and high-key, but there are examples of interesting lighting in many musical numbers from these old films, the ballet from "American in Paris" being the most famous along with "The Red Shoes." There is often some nice moonlit romantic slow dance number in these films for example ("The Band Wagon" has one, as does "American in Paris", and of course, the famous "Singin' in the Rain" number in the film of the same name.)

 

The Minnelli-directed musicals in general are good to study for color, design, and lighting. Look at the big fantasy dance number with firelight in "The Pirate" for example or something simple like the "Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas" number in "Meet Me in St. Louis" (a heartbreaking scene actually...)

 

And one could count the French Can-Can dance in "Moulin Rouge" (Huston/Morris version) as a Technicolor musical number that's photographically interesting.

 

Interestingly, one of my favorite dance numbers is not that interesting for lighting (fake ourdoors set) but fantastic for widescreen composition and choreography, the barn-raising dance in "Seven Brides for Seven Brothers", a textbook example of the sins of panning & scanning.

 

Down here on Earth, we are all starved for Technicolor...