Anders Holmstrand Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 Hello all - I'm posting this query in hopes of some good business advice. I am being asked to work in HD on a project that has, until now, been shooting on Beta SP. The job will put a dent in the cost of an F-900 but won't cover it all, by any stretch. Does anyone have a sense of what the long term viability of this $150,000 camera system might be? Is it becoming the workhorse of the industry for HD acquisition? Might it have a 3 year lifespan for profitable work that is technically up to par? Is it the new D-600, which one could pay for 10 times over? Will it replace Beta SP? I realize some of these questions are subjective - please use them as starting points only. I am shooting in so many formats these days that I'm understandably on the fence about this large a purchase. Then again, I hate to blow $1000 day on a rental that could go toward buying one for myself. Any thoughts out there from working DP's who understand the exigencies of planning in dollar terms - as well as creative terms? Thanks - Anders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member David Mullen ASC Posted December 29, 2004 Premium Member Share Posted December 29, 2004 I think the F900 camera has at least three years of life; it's still the only 1080P camcorder on the market, unless you consider the Panavision Genesis a camcorder (but it's not for sale). Until Sony starts making an HDCAM-SR camcorder, I don't see a replacement to the F900 unless the whole camcorder approach becomes less of the common way of shooting. And for HDTV reality shows, the F900 will probably become the Betacam of HD (actually, it IS an HD betacam...). But for whether it makes sense to BUY one, I wouldn't unless you really have a good sense of how much you will be renting it out for the next three years versus how much you'd be renting it from others. You'd have to be renting a lot to justify buying it instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Brennan Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 I think the F900 camera has at least three years of life; it's still the only 1080P camcorder on the market, unless you consider the Panavision Genesis a camcorder (but it's not for sale). Until Sony starts making an HDCAM-SR camcorder, I don't see a replacement to the F900 unless the whole camcorder approach becomes less of the common way of shooting. And for HDTV reality shows, the F900 will probably become the Betacam of HD (actually, it IS an HD betacam...). But for whether it makes sense to BUY one, I wouldn't unless you really have a good sense of how much you will be renting it out for the next three years versus how much you'd be renting it from others. You'd have to be renting a lot to justify buying it instead. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You need to make your money back in 3 years if you are in it for the money. If you are in it for other reasons like you want to play around and explore techniques ect then add another year. Beyond this it will cost you money and you may as well g o and rent hte camera for any experimental or weekend funky stuff. Indies will always consider f900 as the camera that shot Star Wars!. It has to be supported for at least 10 years by Sony in Europe. (early Mark 1 models have a minimum of 6 years of support life left) The critical factor is good local Sony support. (an oxymoran in most languages) Backup camera, fast turnaround, honouring warrenty ect. As an owner operator I have had to fight for this! F900 mark one isn't really the camera for owner operators....but the f900/H has better reliability so far. Lenses and accessories will always be worth something. If you can do without it don't do it. If you can't do without it then don't let the money get in the way! Mike Brennan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anders Holmstrand Posted December 31, 2004 Author Share Posted December 31, 2004 Thank you both for your insight. It will certainly help with this decision. Any more thoughts out there will be appreciated. Anders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Phil Rhodes Posted January 1, 2005 Premium Member Share Posted January 1, 2005 Hi, I wouldn't buy a 900 at this point. Usually by the time it's become clear that a given piece of kit is the thing of the moment, it's too late to get established. It's been on the scene a while. If it's just for your own use, on the other hand... Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anders Holmstrand Posted January 7, 2005 Author Share Posted January 7, 2005 Thanks Phil - I was speaking with a vendor a few days ago who mentioned that Sony is under a lot of pressure to come up with a more affordable HD/24p broadcast camera and that it may be announced at NAB. We will see... Anders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lester W. Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 Check out the Kinetta 1080p camera that operates up to 60fps... cost is about $60K. Review: http://www.mavromatic.com/archives/000287.asp Web Site: http://www.kinetta.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Hoppe Posted July 7, 2005 Share Posted July 7, 2005 There is a 1080p 3-chip camera with a DVI out. It runs about 10,000 and you would add a raid storage device to it. It would make a good studio camera with quick editing properties. Remember the 1980?s when 3/4 tape ruled and separate recorder was carried by the strongest P.A. you could find. History repeats itself! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Phil Rhodes Posted July 7, 2005 Premium Member Share Posted July 7, 2005 Hi, The name of this device? Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Hoppe Posted July 7, 2005 Share Posted July 7, 2005 Iconix 1/3 progressive 3ccd HDTV Camera Check out the website: www.iconixvideo.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Phil Rhodes Posted July 7, 2005 Premium Member Share Posted July 7, 2005 Hi, I assume when they say "720p, 1080i/p@ 24/50/60Hz" they don't actually mean "1080p at 60Hz. But still rather nice. One could couple that up to an HDCAM recorder. It's about time someone came up with a reasonably-priced DVI-input DVR. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Hoppe Posted July 8, 2005 Share Posted July 8, 2005 Hi, I assume when they say "720p, 1080i/p@ 24/50/60Hz" they don't actually mean "1080p at 60Hz. But still rather nice. One could couple that up to an HDCAM recorder. It's about time someone came up with a reasonably-priced DVI-input DVR. Phil <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I spoke with Inconix several weeks ago. The engineers said that the 1080p Camera was at 60Hz. I don't think you need to go to an HDCAM recorder but directly to a DVI DVR raid configuration. I suppose you could go to a HDCAM for backup. Good ideas are coming from this kind of thinking... Ted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member David Mullen ASC Posted July 8, 2005 Premium Member Share Posted July 8, 2005 So what's the difference between HD-SDI and DVI? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Phil Rhodes Posted July 8, 2005 Premium Member Share Posted July 8, 2005 Hi, In effect, DVI is a digital replacement for the analog 15-pin D-sub connector previously used by desktop computers. SDI is a digital replacement for component analog video. The DVI connector and signal spec was developed to replace the 15-pin D-sub standard analogue connector and signalling used by desktop computers through the early 2000s. This makes sense given the increasing prevalence of LCD display panels which are usually digital devices internally, and previously had to jump through a few hoops to successfully sample the analog-ish video from the computer. The 15-pin D connector carries fairly normal RGB video (just faster than usual, as whatever screenmode the PC is in dictates), whereas DVI carries three serial streams of digital data representing RGB picture content. This means an LCD monitor can match a screen pixel to a pixel in the graphics card's display memory easily, obviating concerns over moire and patterning. Most DVI implementations also carry the analog RGB on separate pins, so inherently analog devices like CRT monitors don't have to demux the digital information. DVI is a lot more flexible than SDI; it supports more or less any display dimensions and update speed you can throw at it. The plain vanilla single-link variety has a maximum bandwidth of 165MHz per channel which is sufficient for 1920x1080 at 60Hz or 1280x1024 at 85Hz. This is very fast for consumer equipment, much faster than SDI, and the cable run is limited to 5m. There is a dual-link version, by far the minority, which easily has the potential to drive 24p 2K displays, or HD displays at 96Hz for very smooth-looking 24p projection. DVI frames are 8 or 10 bits deep and almost always 4:4:4, whereas SDI is 10 bits deep and always 4:2:2. DVI is not necessarily intended to achieve bit-perfect signalling, whereas SDI most certainly is - often DVI display devices are not fast enough to display single-bit errors, but occasionally with a cheap cable some speckling is apparent. It is possible to achieve near bit perfection with careful, short cable runs. The only piece of professional filmmaking equipment I know of that uses DVI a lot is the Baselight 8 colour corrector, in which all internal video is DVI - it's more or less the only thing that's fast enough. I suspect quite a lot of cameras use it as a monitoring connection. Apple's ADC connector is effectively DVI with USB and power. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Most Posted July 8, 2005 Share Posted July 8, 2005 Iconix 1/3 progressive 3ccd HDTV Camera A little reality check for everyone here, please. Iconix: Doesn't exist. They are a startup company looking for investors, not a product you can buy, rent, or use. Kinetta: Doesn't exist. Yes, Jeff is trying hard, but for all the publicity and Jeff's many posts in various places, you can't buy one, rent one, or use one. The only one(s) that exist, if they do at all, are prototypes in Jeff's lab. D20: Exists, but you currently can't buy one, rent one, or use one on a project that isn't a "test." Genesis: The only product mentioned in this thread that actually exists and might be available (they're in limited supply). Anyone looking for the "replacement" for the F900 and Varicam should keep the above in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Haine Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 At the risk of appearing completely ignorant, on the inconix website, when it says C-mount, it's not refering to the old lens mount frequently found on Bolex's, is it? chuck haine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member David Mullen ASC Posted July 9, 2005 Premium Member Share Posted July 9, 2005 At the risk of appearing completely ignorant, on the inconix website, when it says C-mount, it's not refering to the old lens mount frequently found on Bolex's, is it? chuck haine <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I think that's the only C-mount there is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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