Monitor for Colour Correction

January 30, 2005

I'm looking to add a calibrated monitor to my postproduction setup for colour correction, and was looking for opinions as to what to look for. I don't need anything large, and keeping costs down would obviously be a plus.

Cheers,

Sean

Josh Bass · January 30, 2005

How "not large" do you need it? I would think you'd want at least a 13"--the 8 or 9" ones are more for field use.

I got a Sony PVM 14m2u off eBay a while back for about half it's cost ($400 plus shipping), which is really a steal. However, also a very chancey purchase, so watch out. I consider myself lucky. As far as I know, nothing is wrong with this monitor, and it's quite sweet.

Paramount for the color correction is the type of phosphor used. I don't know what a phosphor is, or what it does, but I DO know that you want your monitor to have SEMPTE-C phosphors, for color correction. Now, my monitor has a "lesser" phosphor, that I'm told, while not perfect, is at least decent for color correction, called P-22. So, SEMPTE-C phosphors or P-22. That's what I got for ya.

What's your price range? I think these monitors, new are around $800-1500, depending on what you get. You don't want a $300 JVC or anything like that.

Careful with the eBay. My monitor's fine, but while buying a monitor for someone else (don't ask), I had a HORRIBLE experience, receiving and subsequently returning three monitors, all with various problems, and finally getting a refund. So if you see anything for auction by VCRGARY (sorry Gary, I'm outing you; you suck), don't get involved. I'll find the guy I bought mine from if I can, if you're interested.

Let me just add that all this advice applies to CRT monitors. If you're talking about LCD/flat panel/plasma/whatever, I don't know anything.

Edited January 30, 2005 by Josh Bass

January 30, 2005

Thanks Josh. Yup, definitely hunting for a CRT, and yes, ebay was where I was going to start looking. Thanks for the tip on the trouble seller. In terms of "not large", I was hoping in the 9" range, but I could probably squeeze a 13" in. Since it would be primarily for correction, I was under the impression that size wasn't too big of an issue.

Anyhow.. thanks again for the input.

Cheers,

Sean

Mark Allen · January 30, 2005

Just an anecdotal commenton this subject. The last time I color corrected something for national TV (US) - I used 200 dollar TV from Best Buy. I used to be a CD at a post facility and I cannot tell you how many times clients would come back and complain that the image they saw in the color correction was not what they saw at home or when it aired.

This is the grand irony of color correction. You are making it look good for a set up that no one will ever see.

Now, I totally understand how it is important to have a good true master and to keep it "in spec" - but I am also painfully aware that the *reality* is most people's TV's are over saturated, very red, very very bright, and a little contrasty. So, as an experiment I decided to color correct to a cheap consumer TV with default setup.

I got to see the spot once on TV broadcast and several times on a "broadcast" monitor in a facility. Maybe in the facility it was slightly desaturated - which I sort of liked anyway - but on TV it was perfect. I saw it on DVD and VHS later on various TVs - perfect.

In fact, I would go as far to say that this was the best looking project I'd ever done when seen broadcast.

So - perhaps you'll be compelled to get a "good" monitor. However, keep in mind, you might want to check it on a cheap monitor just like recording engineers and mixers will keep a cheap pair of 15 dollar speakers to monitor what the real world will hear the mix as.

January 30, 2005

So - perhaps you'll be compelled to get a "good" monitor. However, keep in mind, you might want to check it on a cheap monitor just like recording engineers and mixers will keep a cheap pair of 15 dollar speakers to monitor what the real world will hear the mix as.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good advice. The $15 speaker trick is always a must. As for video, I have typically corrected on my cinema display and tested it out on my Panasonic Tau, but almost every colour correcting guide ever written starts with the phrase "make sure you are using a calibrated broadcast monitor.. yada yada". I just figured I'd try it out "the right way" for a while and weigh the results -- also would be handy as a field monitor I suspect.

Anyone have an opinion on the Sony PVM-8220? It's an 8" monitor, and someone happens to be selling one just down the road from me. Would be a bonus to skip out on shipping, etc.

Edited January 30, 2005 by Sean McVeigh

Stas Tagios · January 30, 2005

I've been using a Sony PVM-14L2 for six months now without a problem. My only thought with regards to anything smaller than a 14" monitor is that it can get to be very fatiguing on the eyes. I considered getting an 8" Sony, figuring I could use it for post and as a portable production monitor, but ultimately opted for the 14" to avoid having to stare at such a small image for lengthy post sessions.

Ideally, you should at least get a monitor with a "blue only" mode, which switches off the red and green on the monitor to allow for proper calibration using color bars. The Sonys in $800 and above range have this feature.

Phil Rhodes · January 30, 2005

Hi,

Getting something that small is silly, frankly - you won't be able to use it for anything except the broadest strokes. At least 14", if you're willing to sit three inches from it, and preferably bigger.

Look for "HR Trinitron" on Sony models. This increases the (price and) pitch of the phosphor colour groups on the face of the display, which is essential on displays under 17". The non-HR field monitors have the same absolute pitch as the biggest ones, really pretty coarse, and they're a framing reference only - you can't see focus.

Phil

Josh Bass · January 30, 2005

Blue gel works in lieu of a blue-only feature, according to every set of calibration instructions I've ever come across. You just cover the screen with it when you come to that phase of the calibration.

There need to be SEMPTE cops that come to your house and make your TV look right, so all our color correction doesn't fly out the window.

January 30, 2005

In a related question... can anyone suggest an inexpensive NTSC output option for the G5? I'd hate to have to bounce back to my PC which has an s-vid output to do correction on the broadcast monitor.

Josh Bass · January 30, 2005

Are you a miniDV guy?

The way I do it, and I think a lot of us do, is that you go from your computer, via firewire, to your camera, which acts like a D/A converter, and then from the camera, via Svideo or RCA, to the NTSC monitor. That's the cheap way. Don't know how you set that up on FCP (which I assume you're using), since I have a PC and Vegas, but the principle's the same. Your playback (smoothness/framerate, that is) on your fancy new NTSC monitor might suffer, but that doesn't seem like it should matter too much for color correction.

January 31, 2005

Are you a miniDV guy?

The way I do it, and I think a lot of us do, is that you go from your computer, via firewire, to your camera, which acts like a D/A converter, and then from the camera, via Svideo or RCA, to the NTSC monitor. That's the cheap way. Don't know how you set that up on FCP (which I assume you're using), since I have a PC and Vegas, but the principle's the same. Your playback (smoothness/framerate, that is) on your fancy new NTSC monitor might suffer, but that doesn't seem like it should matter too much for color correction.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nope. No DV gear at all. Working at SD, HD, 2K uncompressed typically. I've read that going through a DV cam for monitoring yields improper black levels (0 IRE instead of 7.5). At this point, after doing a bit of research, I think I may just pick up another video card that supports a TV-out jack of some sort. Seems that for about $60 I can pick up a Mac PCI Radeon 7000 w/ S-Video, DVI, and VGA outputs and run quadruple-headed (including one NTSC monitor). Seems like a decent option and worth a shot.

Thanks again for the suggestions Josh.

-Sean

Alessandro Machi · January 31, 2005

Just an anecdotal commenton this subject. The last time I color corrected something for national TV (US) - I used 200 dollar TV from Best Buy. I used to be a CD at a post facility and I cannot tell you how many times clients would come back and complain that the image they saw in the color correction was not what they saw at home or when it aired.

This is the grand irony of color correction. You are making it look good for a set up that no one will ever see.

Now, I totally understand how it is important to have a good true master and to keep it "in spec" - but I am also painfully aware that the *reality* is most people's TV's are over saturated, very red, very very bright, and a little contrasty. So, as an experiment I decided to color correct to a cheap consumer TV with default setup.

I got to see the spot once on TV broadcast and several times on a "broadcast" monitor in a facility. Maybe in the facility it was slightly desaturated - which I sort of liked anyway - but on TV it was perfect. I saw it on DVD and VHS later on various TVs - perfect.

In fact, I would go as far to say that this was the best looking project I'd ever done when seen broadcast.

So - perhaps you'll be compelled to get a "good" monitor. However, keep in mind, you might want to check it on a cheap monitor just like recording engineers and mixers will keep a cheap pair of 15 dollar speakers to monitor what the real world will hear the mix as.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

When you color correct to an incorrect monitor you get the inverse result of what you were correcting. If you were to color correct using a saturated, very red, very bright and a little contrasty monitor you would end up with a dechroma'd, yellow/green, dim and foggy picture.

When I started my editing studio back in 1993 I purchased two 13 inch pansonic professional monitors (sold for around $650-750.00 each back then) They had cross-pulse, blue only underscan, etc...

Best think I ever did, (along with getting a waveform and vectorscope shortly thereafter).

The most difficult thing to color correction is nailing the brightess and contrast on the television monitor. When you get it nailed correctly what you will discover is some television sets are in fact kept too Red, Bright, and too colorful. That is why it is very important to set 7.5 IRE black on your television monitor. Then one very carefully sets their black level on the video content in such a way one is ever so slightly crushing the lower end of the black scale without actually losing detail of importance.

This careful adjusting cannot be accurately done on a cheap monitor and is almost impossible to do by perfectly setting your professional monitor to SMPTE spec because SMPTE spec tends to mask low end black detail that will show up on peoples home TV's!

I've seen video editors in digi-betacam suites actually toggle their set-up level to try and see what the home audience will see in the lower end blacks and then toggle the set-up level back to SMPTE spec.

It's a mess.

The way through this mess is by using a waveform, a vectorscope and have instant video level adjusting capabilities on the video source material so that one can toggle their video level to the ideal setting.

The biggest problem with using any consumer television is there is no underscan or cross-pulse AND there is no way to turn off all the auto-gain features that are constantly altering what is really there.

Mark Allen · January 31, 2005

Nope. No DV gear at all. Working at SD, HD, 2K uncompressed typically. I've read that going through a DV cam for monitoring yields improper black levels (0 IRE instead of 7.5).
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Try This

http://www.blackmagic-design.com/site/products.htm - no DV

A recommended DV add on solution via firewireis this: http://www.canopus.us/US/products/ADVC_sel...c_selection.asp

Jack Kelly · June 21, 2006

Hi there,

What are the dangers of getting an old, 2nd hand monitor? Do monitors slip out of calibration with age?

I'm thinking of buying a Sony BVM-1410P (specs PDF).

Thanks,

Jack Kelly

London

Dir/Prod/Camera

Alessandro Machi · June 21, 2006

Hi there,

What are the dangers of getting an old, 2nd hand monitor? Do monitors slip out of calibration with age?

I'm thinking of buying a Sony BVM-1410P (specs PDF).

Thanks,

Jack Kelly

London

Dir/Prod/Camera

Monitors do go out of calibration and over time brightness can dim, the blacks can go muddy (meaning you'll see a color tone mixed in with the black) and even color intensity can drop. I'd also be concerned how much the monitor was used and if there are any "burn ins". Burn ins are caused when a monitor has been used to showcase time-code numbers. The white numbers burn in into the picture tube.

I've had a professional monitor for over 10 years in my studio and it's important I warm it up for at least one hour before I do actual color correction. I've even noticed that at times that may not be enough warm up time for really critical adjustments.

Your final concern is how does the monitor operate once it's up to operating temperature, sometimes the monitor will work fine for a few hours and then develop some type of anamoly that you would never see if you just turned on the monitor for a few minutes.

Those some of things that can go wrong, that doesn't mean however that an older monitor is not worth considering, in many cases older monitors may have been made with superior components to what is being used today in terms of hardiness and longevity. I bought my monitor new around 1993 and am still using it.