Rodinal & Tri-X Reversal Super8

[Juan Garza]

Hi, i'm new to all this moving pictures witchcraft and i wanted to ask if it is posible to develop Tri-X reversal with Rodinal, i have procesed Tri-X Negative Stills (ISO 400 120 Formal) and i get acceptable results, but is this posible with the reversal super 8 film?

also, what sould i do with the anti-halation layer?

 

The reason i'm asking this is beacause i have no money to buy chemicals and i cant afford the costs of shiping the film to a professional lab, and rodinal would be really cheap.

 

Thanks for your help and time.

[K Borowski]

I understand what it is like to have no money, but think this would be a bad idea.

 

You can process Tri-X reversal as negative, but I think it looses a couple of stops speed.

 

 

You have a negative. . . What are you going to do with it? If you don't have the money to afford professional processing (a minor expense, in my opinion), you won't have money to transfer or use this negative film image either.

 

 

You can cheaply develop B&W reversal, but the process is long and arduous. It will require the use of sulphuric acid (car battery acid) among many other chemicals, only available in large quantities, and will look bad if you don't have the right equipment (buckets = bad idea).

 

 

 

If you need more specific details, I'd be happy to offer more advice. There is already a lot on here.

[Charles MacDonald]

i have procesed Tri-X Negative Stills (ISO 400 120 Formal) and i get acceptable results, but is this posible with the reversal super 8 film?

 

What would you be planing to do with the resulting negatives? Are you planning to use this as part of a still camera project, or do you want to use it as a movie?

 

Rodinal is a great old developer, but is quite a bit different from the normal Movie soup. The reversal process whould require many more steps than a still negative and is tricky enough that there are often questions here about getting good results using the "official" formulas.

 

If you prowl around the Kodak Moie web site you can find the manual for the official process. if you do enough, you may be able to mix the formulas from Bulk Chemicals, for a similar cost.

[Juan Garza]

Yes I'm trying to make my first movie, just a 10 Min short on super 8, I have no formal training but have been reading whatever i can find on cinematography for over a year, but i still have to expose my first movie frame, I'm quite limited on equipment, i have acces to 3 500 W flood lights, I'm building a home made camera stabilizer with some gym weights and spare parts, i have a yashica super 600 electro, which is auto exposure (not my choice, but whats available), i wish i had acces for a camera where i can control the exposure.

 

I think i can process my own film if someone points me in the right direction, my unkle is a chemist and can help me get hold of chemicals by the kilo for dry and by the liter for liquids (no pro labs for super 8 here).

 

I know i mentioned B&W, but i would like to learn both B&W and Color Reversal Process.

 

thanks for your help.

[Chris Millar]

Rodinal is a grainy developer.

 

Reversal film developed as neg results in grainier images than if they were developed reversal.

 

Super8 is near on the grainest format out there.

 

Just so you're aware:

 

:ph34r: GRAIN :ph34r:

[Juan Garza]

I was also thinking on using the PVC pipe Developing Tank on this page

http://www.peaceman.de/blog/index.php/inexpensive-super-8-home-processing-tank

 

Can some one tell me if it´s a good idea or should i invest in a real developing tank?

[Richard Tuohy]

Hi juan,

sure you can learn to process tri-x yourself. Its not that hard. First question is (as others have asked above) do you want to process super 8 Tri-x as a negative, or do you want to process it to a positive image (which is called 'reversal processing')? You can do either, but there are more steps and more chemicals involved in processing reversal.

You could use your rodinal as a developer if you wanted to process tri-x as a negative. It would be o.k., but as pointed out above, it would be slightly less grainy if you used a different developer, like Kodak D76.

We can certainly help you on this forum with the instructions for processing bw as either negative or reversal. For reversal, I would recommend using kodak D19. You would also need chemistry for the bleach and for the clearing baths. You can use the Potasium Dichromate and sulphuric acid bleach (which is called 'R9' - can give you the mixing instructions later) and sodium sulphite for the clearing bath. The fixer is just the normal fixer you would use for still film.

As for the pvc tank, it would work. It would still cost you a bit to make however. I personally would recommend buying yourself a 50' (15meter) Lomo tank. They are quite available from the Ukraine on Ebay. They vary in price a bit, but are usually about US$120. Don't pay too much. But make sure it is a 15meter tank not the smaller 10 meter tank.

So go for it. Reveral processing isn't too hard to do. Colour (using the tetenal 3 bath e6 kit) is actually easier. But I do suggest your master bw reversal first as it is cheaper.

regards,

richard

 

 

 

I was also thinking on using the PVC pipe Developing Tank on this page

http://www.peaceman.de/blog/index.php/inexpensive-super-8-home-processing-tank

 

Can some one tell me if it´s a good idea or should i invest in a real developing tank?

[Chris Millar]

Hi Richard,

 

Where are you getting your D19 from ?

 

I'm down to my last bag. Could home brew it but I'm a bit lazy sourcing all the chems - not doing anywhere near as much developing as you of course...

 

I see the 2x50' lomo tanks going from $157 and $198 US in a completed listing search - if the US dollar wasn't so crap at the moment I'd consider selling mine (keep the 100' pro though, sorry)

 

I'm not sure if (3 bath) colour is as easy as reversal - they both certainly are time consuming huh, but the added step of reversal re-exposure I find easier than the logistics involved in maintaining temperature in E6

 

I guess there is the fun involved in handling conc. oil of vitriol for the bleach - ha, yes maybe you're right!

[Simon Wyss]

my unkle is a chemist and can help me get hold of chemicals by the kilo for dry and by the liter for liquids.

You fortunate son! Rodinal (after the french artist Auguste Rodin, 1840–1917) is fine for your work. Kodak TXR has no anti-halation layer that would come off, it’s a grey-base stock. Jump into it, who knows if you won’t end up with a lab like me. Replace what’s missing! Welcome to the wonderful Grauzone between anorganic and organic chemistry.

[Richard Tuohy]

Hi Richard,

 

Where are you getting your D19 from ?

 

I'm down to my last bag. Could home brew it but I'm a bit lazy sourcing all the chems - not doing anywhere near as much developing as you of course...

 

I see the 2x50' lomo tanks going from $157 and $198 US in a completed listing search - if the US dollar wasn't so crap at the moment I'd consider selling mine (keep the 100' pro though, sorry)

 

I'm not sure if (3 bath) colour is as easy as reversal - they both certainly are time consuming huh, but the added step of reversal re-exposure I find easier than the logistics involved in maintaining temperature in E6

 

I guess there is the fun involved in handling conc. oil of vitriol for the bleach - ha, yes maybe you're right!

g'day Chris,

I get d19 from the Australian Importer - Australian Phot Supplies. I don't suppose that will help you much though! Yes, one of the advantages of D19 is that it comes in a pre-mixed form, but mixing from components can be cost effective.

Those prices for a 50' lomo are more than I have paid. I generally aim for $200 in total including post to Australia. But I do have to hunt a bit for that. There are really only the two baths you have to worry about the temperature for with a 3 bath e6 process (compared to only one in bw reversal). The fewer steps makes it much quicker I find.

hi ho,

rt

[Charles MacDonald]

g'day Chris,

I get d19 from the Australian Importer - Australian Phot Supplies. I don't suppose that will help you much though!

 

 

I don't know where you are Chris, in North america you should be able to get D-19 from Folks like Freestyle. If you need a multi gallon pack phone Kodak and see what they stock.

 

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/1464593-Kodak-D19-Powder-Film-Developer-to-Make-1-Gallon

[Chris Millar]

I live in NZ.

 

Richard and I chatted recently about our relative proximity - sorry if it wasn't so clear to everyone else ;)

 

When it comes to 'film is dead', imagine the usual crap you get in the states or UK, parts of Europe etc... then multiply it by about hmmm, 20, then you've got the state of film awareness in this country.

 

There are lots of people working with it and doing weird, wonderful and interesting things so don't get me wrong, but for whatever reason our population is under a threshold that dictates any supplier being aware of these people.

 

'Fuji don't make film anymore'

'Ilford has sold its factories'

A 5L E6 kit took 7 months to make it into the country via Kodak

 

There is always all the internet suppliers (but they cant do hazmat, which excludes me from Silver Nitrate for instance) - but you'd think a bag of D76 might be easy to find for under 3x the US price ? No chance, and it'll be near expiry also .

 

Ah well, it what ya get for living in a %97 humidity paradise :rolleyes:

[Juan Garza]

I'm intrested in the reversal process since it has the advantage of not having to buy more film to make a positive. i guess i'll start saving for a tank then.

[Chris Millar]

yeh man,

 

its all good and fun !

 

Some small hurdles and quality expectation adjustments (and costs) but what are you gonna do otherwise - eat some cereal ? ;)

 

If you aren't happy with eBay/Russia - mind that I've had three successful auctions and non failures so far - then I might be persuaded to sell you one of my tanks...

[Juan Garza]

I've been reading about the reversal proces on diferent pages, there is a lot about B&W but i cant find much about Color Reversal.

 

One thing thats not clear to me is the Re-Exposure. I have not found a clear explanation on this procedure, i read somewhere that it involves a 100 W bulb, but how should I go about it? and how does diferent bulbs afect this part of the process(Soft White Incandesent Bulb vs Clear Incandesent vs equivalent Fluorecent Light)?

[K Borowski]

Apologies if this has already been mentioned, but you can use Dektol as well.

 

 

Not as good as D-19, but an acceptable substitute if D-19 is difficult to obtain.

 

 

 

 

Also, the chemical formula for D-19 is available. I'll see if I can locate it for you. . .

[K Borowski]

I was trying really hard to add this before the window to edit my prior post closed.

 

 

Make sure to obtain anhydrous chemistry. You'll have to change the amounts if you obtain another form. . .

 

 

 

- - -

Found it. Here are two links:

 

http://www.digitaltruth.com/data/kodak_d19.php

 

http://www.apug.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-43233.html

 

 

 

The formula:

 

Water 50°C (125°Fahr) 500mL 64 U.S. fl. oz.

Metol (Elon is the Kodak name) 2.0g 1/4 oz. avdp.

Sodium Sulfite (anhydrous) 90g 12 oz avdp.

Hydroquinone 8.0g 1-1/16 oz. avdp.

Sodium Carbonate (anhydrous) 52.5g 7 oz. avdp.

Potassium Bromide 5.0g 11/16 oz. avdp.

 

Water to make 1 Liter 1 U.S. gallon (Multiply number of ounces by 1.2 to obtain weights per Imperial gallon (oh, and start with 80 Imp. fl. oz. water too ;-) )

[Chris Millar]

I've been reading about the reversal proces on diferent pages, there is a lot about B&W but i cant find much about Color Reversal.

 

One thing thats not clear to me is the Re-Exposure. I have not found a clear explanation on this procedure, i read somewhere that it involves a 100 W bulb, but how should I go about it? and how does diferent bulbs afect this part of the process(Soft White Incandesent Bulb vs Clear Incandesent vs equivalent Fluorecent Light)?

 

Colour reversal = E6

 

You're looking at getting a Kodak 5 bath or Tetenal 3 bath kit for that - its pretty much nailed down in terms of process so there aint much chatter about it compared to B&W reversal where there are different ways to go about it - you will however find lots of info about how people go about stabilising the temperature of the tank and chems, including folk who are happy to be sloppy and not do anything too fancy, to me that approach is a bit of a false economy once you've taken into consideration the stock and chem costs and then the time spent photographing ...

 

Re-exposure - well, personally I dont find it too critical, I've left film out to dry after the bleach and clearing bath for days, its seen the sun etc... then I develop it, project it and it looks fine to me. I really need to do a comparison of proper technique vs. my out in the sun random approach, you just gotta make sure the lighting is even, preferably diffuse (i.e. not the sun! unless you move the film about lots which effectively makes the sun a wiggly line from the perspective of the film plane).

 

I was thinking one day of shooting film, going through the process to the clearing bath step then drying the film (in the dark) - then reloading it and shooting more footage - then bleaching that - then redeveloping... Something like a multiply layer in a comp prog, but all analog and in camera ;)

 

I think the hardest things to do with home developing are:

 

- not getting %100 (or near enough) sulphuric acid on ones body

- not drinking the carcinogenic (I think?) and acidic bleach which looks like orange cordial

- not drinking the clearing bath which looks like lime cordial

 

sleeved gloves, goggles and proper gear are essential here

 

- loading the damn film on the spirals ... depending on your patience about one out of twenty times you'll end up with a mess of film everywhere, which you've got to untangle in the dark

- drying the film without water spots, scratches and dirt ... big issue, which I've never really tackled, I just see home brew developing as an inherently dodgy process, assume there will be glitches then work with that aesthetic

- managing it after the fact ... reels pile up and you've got to have a good database of what is where

- cleaning up the stains from the developers on your bathroom floor, walls, ceiling, cat, power sockets etc... they are nasty if left for too long

[K Borowski]

I put a 1-gal. jug of some B&W developer in the refrigerator once, and a family member almost drank it (When'd you get the iced tea?), even though I had a skull and crossbones and a Danger Deadly Poison warning written on it.

 

So it does happen. I broke a cardinal rule of not putting chemicals in a refrigerator to be used for food storage, so ultimately the fault was mine.

 

 

 

 

Why not just buy car batter acid? I have essentially a lifetime supply for handprocessing that I purchased in 2004, and it is a "mere" 33-1/3% or something "tame" like that. I've gotten a few drops on my skin. The R-9 bleach with the highly-diluted version stings more on cuts.

[Chris Millar]

I put a 1-gal. jug of some B&W developer in the refrigerator once, and a family member almost drank it (When'd you get the iced tea?), even though I had a skull and crossbones and a Danger Deadly Poison warning written on it.

 

So it does happen. I broke a cardinal rule of not putting chemicals in a refrigerator to be used for food storage, so ultimately the fault was mine.

 

Why not just buy car batter acid? I have essentially a lifetime supply for handprocessing that I purchased in 2004, and it is a "mere" 33-1/3% or something "tame" like that. I've gotten a few drops on my skin. The R-9 bleach with the highly-diluted version stings more on cuts.

Yes, true re. battery acid - just makes calcs a little more confusing, but bleach is pretty forgiving in terms of amounts so yeh, good advice. I'd be more worried about the dichromate than the acid if it got on me - 8 months of chemo already is enough thanks :o

 

and yes, I'm guilty of bad storage technique - I use 2L plastic bottles, ex milk usually - one day I noted I had randomly put the bleach into a pristine orange juice container, no kids here, or stupid people though (but me)...

[K Borowski]

What's so bad about K-Dichromate? I know heavy metals are bad for you, as is K in an oxygen atmosphere, but I thought in compound form it was relatively harmless.

 

 

Anyway, I don't make a habit of bathing in it. Sometimes you have to reach into chemical baths to fix something when sh** hits the fan and there isn't time to put on gloves, capes, masks, etc.

 

 

 

As for the calculations, they're no harder than converting grams/L to +/- 1/16 oz avdp. on the fly :-p Maybe I should have left them in ounces, grains, but I have a fixation with pretty numbers, not that anyone uses anything besides metric to mix up chemistry now anyway.

[Chris Millar]

What's so bad about K-Dichromate? I know heavy metals are bad for you, as is K in an oxygen atmosphere, but I thought in compound form it was relatively harmless.

 

...

 

As for the calculations, they're no harder than converting grams/L to +/- 1/16 oz avdp. on the fly :-p Maybe I should have left them in ounces, grains, but I have a fixation with pretty numbers, not that anyone uses anything besides metric to mix up chemistry now anyway.

So is gangster rap and those whiney fake punk bands from LA :rolleyes:

 

MSDS:

 

3. Hazards Identification

 

Emergency Overview

--------------------------

POISON! DANGER! MAY BE FATAL IF SWALLOWED, INHALED OR ABSORBED THROUGH SKIN. STRONG OXIDIZER. CONTACT WITH OTHER MATERIAL MAY CAUSE A FIRE. CORROSIVE. CAUSES SEVERE BURNS TO EVERY AREA OF CONTACT. AFFECTS THE RESPIRATORY SYSTEM, LIVER, KIDNEYS, EYES, SKIN AND BLOOD. MAY CAUSE ALLERGIC REACTION. CANCER HAZARD. CAN CAUSE CANCER. Risk of cancer depends on duration and level of exposure.

--------------------------

 

Sure most MSDS have warnings for almost everything (everything is fatal if you have enough of it in the wrong places huh) - but I've had cancer once too many times in my life, so never again thank you

 

The calcs: I have instructions for conc acid so if I have say %33 I also have account for the water I'm adding in addition - sure, its nothing of a calculation, but its 'a very big number' more calculation than no calculation :P

[K Borowski]

I don't get the rap referrence.

 

 

 

Care to guess from which substance's MSDS this is taken?

 

V. HEALTH HAZARD INFORMATION

 

Routes of Exposure and Effects of Overexposure

 

Inhalation

Acute over exposure: Inhalation can result in asphyxiation and is often fatal.

Chronic overexposure: Chronic inhalation overexposure not encountered.

 

Skin Contact

Acute overexposure: Prolonged but constant contact with liquid may cause a mild dermatitis.

Chronic overexposure: Mild to severe dermatitis.

 

Skin Absorption

Acute overexposure: No effects noted.

Chronic overexposure: No effects noted.

 

Eye Contact

Acute overexposure: No effects noted.

Chronic overexposure: No effects noted.

 

Ingestion

Acute overexposure: Excessive ingestion of liquid form can cause gastric distress and mild diarrhea.

Chronic overexposure: No effects noted.

 

Emergency and First Aid Procedures

Eyes: None

Skin: None

Inhalation: Remove to fresh air; Provide artificial respiration; Provide oxygen.

Ingestion: None

 

Notes to Physician: None

 

VI. REACTIVITY DATA

 

Conditions contributing to instability: Exposure to direct current electricity.

 

Incompatibility: Strong acids and bases can cause rapid heating. Reaction with sodium metal can result in explosion.

 

Hazardous decomposition products: Hydrogen - Explosive gas Oxygen - Supports rapid combustion

 

Conditions contributing to hazardous polymerization: None

 

 

 

 

EDIT: GROAN (we need an emoticon for that) I get it. I thought the "Huck Fezbollah" sticker plastered on one of the motor cases the last job I worked on was far funnier.

 

I thought it so funny, people began to get annoyed when I kept asking "Do you know Huck? Has anyone seen Huck? I wanted to ask him where to put his case." :D

Edited December 24, 2010 by K Borowski

[Chris Millar]

Probably water - or something innocuous like that ..Unless I'm mistaken, I did pre-empt this line of reply (?)

 

Mind that it doesn't mention cancer, severe burns to every area of contact, or affecting your blood or burning your stuff up :o

 

 

Do you like rap ? ha ha

[John Woods]

I'm intrested in the reversal process since it has the advantage of not having to buy more film to make a positive. i guess i'll start saving for a tank then.

 

You should start with the bucket or spaghetti method. Get some plastic buckets often you can find these for free in back alleys. And dunk your film from bucket to bucket. I recommend you start with a strip test or two, pull a couple feet out of your cartridge and then experiment with developing times and see if you like the results.

 

This method will result in extreme scratches, emulation flaking and uneven processing but it works and with aggressive agitation you can get results with very little chemistry. Larger amounts of chemistry, gentle hands and experience you can quite minimize the scratches. If you like the process then spend the money on a russian tank or a g-3.

 

Don't be afraid to experiment! Too many beginners worry about having everything perfect the first time out. Shoot a test roll around your house of your family & friends. Learn from that roll, then get more ambitious.

 

Hand processing can be quite rewarding, especially if you get over the fact that you are not going to get results like a pro lab (especially when you are learning) and embrace the power of hand processing. Push/pull, solarization, tinting/toning, etc. can be done at your whim. If you are mixing your own chemistry you can alter the formula for your own look. Remember Kodak's formula's and timings are just one way, there are books and websites with lots of information on manipulating film chemistry.