Canon XL2 vs. Sony HVR-Z1U

[drew_town]

Hi everyone,

 

As a camera operator which camera (XL2 or HVR-Z1U) would you guys rather shoot on? We'll be purchasing some new cameras soon with a budget of about 10,000 for each camera and its needed accessories (tripods, shoulder mounts and all). I know all about the hd vs. dv thing and the progressive issue, but what I'm more interested in is how these cameras feel when you're out there shooting with them. We'll be doing a mix of documentaries and television-oriented programing (no blown up film stuff, although I much prefer the progressive look). What are these cameras quirks? Also which accessories would you suggest? I know a good bit about the XL2 and will recommend the standard lens and the 16x manual lens. I don't know much about the sony version so any info would be appreciated. I'll post the same topic in the appropriate hd section too to get an even response.

 

Thanks,

AT

[Robert Sanders]

I find both cameras frustrating.

 

The XL2 is the dream DV camera I always wanted. True 16x9. True 24P (and 30P). But, it's come too late. I'm ready to dive into HD and anamorphic standard-def video just doesn't do it for me anymore.

 

The HVR-Z1U is nice starting point, but it's nowhere near ideal. There are moments when this camera's picture quality can be wonderful. And there are moments when it just completely falls apart. Also, check the camera specs. The imaging resolution is suspect. To me, however, it is the lack of a true 24P frame rate that kills this camera for me.

 

Neither camera represents an ideal low-budget solution. Both miss the mark.

 

However, if I absolutely had to put money down on a camera, the XL2's 24p wins my vote. If JVC is really going to introduce a 24p HDV camera, then that changes the equation a bit.

Edited March 11, 2005 by Starway2001

[Tenolian Bell]

I just saw a test by Jon Fauer of these exact two cameras.

 

The HDV was clearly sharper than the XL-2.

 

The HDV clearly had more latitude than the XL-2

 

The HDV recorder better color than the XL-2

 

Abviously coming from 1080i and HD color space sampling.

 

In testing they found it best shooting in the cine settings at 50i.

Which is progressive segmented frame, and can be seperated

into 25P. In post you slow it down to 24P.

 

But I still grimace at the MPEG 2 compression.

[Laurent Andrieux]

But I still grimace at the MPEG 2 compression.

 

That's the big point ! and does anyone know what NLE system you can work with in HDV ?

[Rodrigo Llano]

But what about with the secundary costs.. Mean if you choose the sony's siste you will need a post production support to get a real HD image..

 

Is good but you must spend much money to get that quality

[joachim]

Hi

it sounds to me that you guys are not really answering the question (or maybe I´m off the mark).

Sounds like the question is how it is to operate the two cameras.

 

To start off, I have only used the PD170, but the HDV series seems very simmilar in lay out

 

I have to say from that perspective the XL2 is far superior. It gives a more proffesional experience when you are shooting with the camera, read: comortable.

 

The viewfinder is better placed and can be adjusted. I also find the menu easier accessible.

 

The one drawback I can think of on the top of my head was that the iris controller became loose and it was difficult to set the F-stop. That´s a design flaw in my opinion, they should have used a wheel instead of the trip switch the are currently using

 

That said, I don´t own any of the two cameras, and are starting a documentary soon and it looks like we will be using the Sony HDV.

 

Good luck with your purchases

[Mark Allen]

That's the big point ! and does anyone know what NLE system you can work with in HDV ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You can get links galore on that subject from: www.hdforindies.com

 

If you're trying to use FCP, try: http://www.lafcpug.org/reviews/review_hdv_raid.html

[Aidin Aren]

You can get links galore on that subject from:  www.hdforindies.com

 

If you're trying to use FCP, try:  http://www.lafcpug.org/reviews/review_hdv_raid.html

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

FCP with a Lumiere plug-in.

 

Premier Pro (native) with a free update from the site.

[TJ Williams]

Boy have we drifted from your topic!

let me respond to you below.

 

As a camera operator which camera (XL2 or HVR-Z1U) would you guys rather shoot on? We'll be purchasing some new cameras soon with a budget of about 10,000 for each camera and its needed accessories (tripods, shoulder mounts and all). I know all about the hd vs. dv thing and the progressive issue, but what I'm more interested in is how these cameras feel when you're out there shooting with them. We'll be doing a mix of documentaries and television-oriented programing (no blown up film stuff, although I much prefer the progressive look). What are these cameras quirks? Also which accessories would you suggest? I know a good bit about the XL2 and will recommend the standard lens and the 16x manual lens. I don't know much about the sony version so any info would be appreciated. I'll post the same topic in the appropriate hd section too to get an even response.

 

 

My son just B camera'd a baby feature shot on 2 XL2 cameras, I have just purchased a Sony HDV Z camera after much soul searching ahd head scratching and have now used it on several corporate and doc. jobs. though no drama yet.

 

Since I have a son working in the biz you can guess that I'm pretty old. and yup started when tv was shot on film. Both these cameras seem bizarre to me as they do not feel like either film or eng cameras. So your more experienced camera person looses the ability to reach the control in the dark and quickly without looking which is part of the reflex from years of shooting with similiar camera controls.

 

The wierdest part of these cameras is the focus ring with no end stops which is actually not the lens ring at all but a ring attached to a focus driving motor. the variable rate of focus programmed into this ring meand that if you install a film style focus. zoom in and mark the disk for two focus points then zoom out half way and try to pull focus with them, the marks will be wrong. At least the Canon allows you to buy special aftermarket lenses only from Canon, not regular B mount or any othe standard mount without an adapter to for instance PL mount from 500 to 5000 can quickly be spent to adapt to other lenses. The nice thing about the Sony here is that the flip out monitor can be set to show focus distances on the screen which is at least some kind of work around.

 

Both these cameras can support several times their value in accessories. I saw one XL2 at NAB with more that $25000 in support and accessories. including Sachtler heavy duty support with dolly, chrozeil production matte box. studio follow focus on Arri style rods with sliding base plate. extended film style eyepiece with arri levelor rod. articulated arms for french flag beside the eyebrow and side brows on the matte box and another articulated arm supporting a 5" 16by9 color monitor. Maybe its just me but I thought this was pretty goofy. For this they could have bought a pretty good used digital Betacam....

 

One accessory I really like that will work with either is the bobab (sp?) zoom control which is very adjustible and easy to use with very nice feel.

 

One feature I like on the Sony is the second zoom control on top of the carry handle so carrying it low in hand held I can zoom very nicely.

 

Overall the sad thing about all this to me is that with all these cameras so different camera operators coming up today will never be able to grab all the controls as smoothly as we did back in the day... when the cameras were much more simple and the controls of all the different manufacturers were all pretty much in the same place.

 

From a picture quality standpoint the HDV camera wins in every quality: color rendition, resolution, and lattitude. This is why I bought the HDV camera.

 

Now here is where I go a ways off the subject.

 

I think 24P and the other progressive speeds are overrated. If you make TV then being in the native frame rate of broadcast will reduce artifacts. Artifacts are just technical mistakes they are not ARTifacts. For years when we shot commercials in 16mm we would shoot at 30fps to make it look better. 24 frames per second is not the look of film. A dozen stops of lattitude and wonderful gradiations of color and tone are the look of film and no electronic camera can duplicate it even now. Recently we shot a doc in 1080i HDcam which was converted to film. To do this they first reduce the data rate to 24p and make all the fields into progressive frames. The results were rather stunning. The big trick here is camera set up and lighting not 24P origination.

[Jesse Castro]

I work in the Japanese wedding industry on Guam. The company I work for uses the Z1J (Japanese Z1U model) unfortunately I can't tell you about recording anything in HDV with this camera because we only use the SD format for shooting the weddings since our end product is DVD. I can tell you what I think about using this camera based on my 4 months of operating this camera.

 

As stated before this camera uses a focus ring which turns around the barrel indefinitely so there are no stops if you wanted to do a rack focus you would just have memorize the f numbers on the display of either the LCD screen or viewfinder and the truth is that even this isn't a sure thing. The LCD and viewfinder (also LCD) are hard to use for determining if your subject is in focus or not, especially on bright sunny days. We usually leave peaking on because of this problem. You can turn on an option to make your viewfinder black and white which I think helps a bit, but because the viewfinder is LCD based it just take practice and "getting use to" how the camera focuses. Iris adjustments are done with a small dial located near the back of the barrel. Again this pretty much spins indefinitely around too, but it's not so loose that a slight nudge would throw off your iris. For shooting weddings this iris is a bit of a pain I'm constantly adjusting it on the move as I change angles of my subject so I've learned to feel for where I need to spin the dial. Zooming is handled by the rocker on the camera body and the small rocker (it's not really a rocker but more of a switch) on the cameras handle. I like that I can adjust how fast or slow the handle rocker zooms, but this adjustment for it is buried in the menu options. However, once you set the speed of the handle zoom it's a matter of selecting the switch on the side of the handle for either fast zoom or slow zoom there is also an off position for this switch. One note about the handle is that there are buttons for setting the camera up for transitions between shots located under it and I have repeatedly hit these buttons with my fingers when I grasp the handle. Operating the zoom rocker on the body has a very nice feel to it with enough resistance on it that you can feel for a slow zoom.

 

 

The menu system for this camera is pretty setup like most other Sony cameras. There are two ways to access the options by either pressing the p-menu button or the menu button. From there you use the spin dial (which also is your shutter speed adjuster) to select which option you want to adjust. Needless to say there are many different settings in here.

 

That pretty much sums up my experience with it. I know it's not a whole lot; however I hope you find it helpful in your decision. I like using this camera, but if I had a choice I'd want a camera with a better lens operation then this model can offer. I think this camera is a great match for what my company does with it. I found this camera pretty easy to learn to use the basic operations of it, however some of the more advanced operations (shot transition, HDV recording, etc) on it I have still yet to tinker around with.