DV Tripods - Spreaders, Carbon Fiber, 75mm/100mm?

Shawn Murphy · April 23, 2005

I've been searching this forum and about five others (as well as Googling for at least 6 weeks now) trying to figure out which set of "sticks" to buy for my Panasonic AG-DVX100A, and for some bizarre reason, I don't feel any more clear about some of the factors involved.

First of all, I'm very new to filmmaking (DV making), however, I want to purchase a setup that will last, and will also not annoy a seasoned DP if I happen to end up working with one and my equipment.

Weight: I plan on using one of the upcoming 35mm adapters on this camera, as well as 4x4 Matte box, so, I can't imagine the weight going above 10lbs? (I suppose if I build one of those do-it-yourself cranes I'll want a different kind of tripod for that, one book I have on building them suggests a simple surveyor's tripod for the crane he builds).

So, the big confusion is around spreaders: need them, want them, use them for?

Telescopic spreaders, and what about the kind that allow weights to be added in the middle for additional stability in the wind?

I see models with spreaders at the very bottom (doesn't seem good for outdoors), some with spreaders in the mid section, and some with none at all. I see some with single stick legs (the Carbon Fibers primarily), and then the rest that all seem to have 3-4 legs columns, and one of the supposedly nicer Bogen/Manfrotto's I checked out seemed to twist a bit more than the Gitzo single carbon fiber legs.. what to do?

And what about the bowl size, 75mm, 100mm?

I will probably go with the Bogen 503 head, but if anyone has any other thoughts on the heads, I'll gladly ponder more opinions ;-)

Any other considerations or questions I should be asking myself?

Thank you in advance for any feedback or guidance.

~Shawn

drew_town · April 24, 2005

The Bogen 503 head is okaaaaay, but the 510 is better with 3-step drags and balance control. My setup is a 510 with 3191 sticks. The sticks have retractable spikes, which I prefer over the permanent spikes (3190 model). You have to buy these stupid shoes that fit over permanent spikes if you want to shoot on smooth surfaces. The best leg model really depends on what you'll be shooting. The 3191 model is a one-stage setup so I'm limited because if I want to shoot something really low on the ground, I have to pull the head and mount it on a hi-hat. The advantage is the setup time is low. When I'm shooting my run-and-gun docs, I can move around and adjust quickly and with easy. A 2 or 3 stage tripod will be more versatile but take longer to setup. Carbon fiber sticks are good only because they're lightweight. I don't think they're any stronger.

I'd suggest a mid-level spreader. It adds a good bit of strength to your tripod. You should get a tripod with a bowl adaptor. It makes leveling fast and easy. I use a 100mm.

There are better tripods like Miller, OConnor, Schatler, Vinten, but I think a good Manfrotto system is worth the money and have really liked the last few I used. Ebay is a good place to find a deal. I got my setup for around $450 as opposed to $1400 new.

Phil Rhodes · April 24, 2005

Hi,

A nice feature on Vinten tripods is that the spike feet have rubber covers that remain attached - you pretty much just toggle them on and off depending on the surface. The same rubber tags hold the spreader on. It's a good system.

Phil

Shawn Murphy · April 24, 2005

Thanks for the quick response, and info about 1 vs 2 & 3 stage, and I definitely plan to go with a bowl, just not sure about the pros and cons of 75 vs 100mm.

So, the 510 won't be overkill for the low weight of the DVX100A?

Shawn Murphy · April 24, 2005

Well, how is it possible that I supposedly searched for weeks, but then right after posting this I went and did another search and came up with a couple of really good threads on this subject! (admittedly the direction is, as 'drew_town' mentioned, leaning towards the Vinten (Vision Series 3), Sachtler (DV 4), Miller (DS-10) range (price/quality).

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=9435

"...every selection represents a compromise. The Miller is a better on-the-go tripod (in my opinion), with a good case, mid-level spreader, individual rubber feet (covering the spikes) and a shoulder strap on the legs. The Sachtler DV-6 is, as I noted, a more accurately adjustable head.

Regarding 2-stage -vs- 1-stage legs, it's a toss-up. I pesonally like 2-stage legs. They collapse just a bit smaller and are able to get down lower. Single stage legs might set-up just a bit quicker in certain situation."

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=20585

"Having owned all the major brands except Miller, I would have to say that if you're used to Vinten quality, neither Bogen or Gitzo will deliver. The pan and tilt movements aren't even in the same league for smoothness and consistency under all conditions. If you can afford the Vinten tripods, you should stick with them. The Vision 3 has received high praise by many users. You might want to search the better brands, such as Vinten, Miller and Sachtler."

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=23327

"Mid and ground spreaders each have beauties and blemishes. I have tripods that feature both designs and cannot honestly say that one is inherently better, or even more convenient, than the other.

One attribute often overlooked on this subject is that of leg splay. Mid-level spreaders generally have a fixed diameter. Ground spreaders feature a variable diameter enabling the legs to be spread to the degree desirable. The best ground spreaders, such as the one on my Vinten, feature calibrated markings on each wing which enable you to easily set relatively precise spreads. Space permitting, the broader the stance of the legs the more stable the tripod. "

Here's a full listing of threads:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/search.php?searchid=4689

Shawn Murphy · April 24, 2005

So, after reviewing all the great feedback, it then comes down to cost/benefit analysis (or, how much can I spend):

The Bogen 3190-510 combo seems to cost around $1393

----- http://www.google.com/froogle?q=Bogen+3190...=Search+Froogle

The Vinten Vision 3 (head only is around $950), and a combo is anywhere from $2300 - $3700 if you go with the Carbon Fiber.

----- http://www.google.com/froogle?q=Vinten+Vis...e&sa=N&start=10

The Sachtler DV-4 or DV-6 combos anywhere from $950 - $1700

---- http://www.google.com/froogle?q=Sachtler+DV-4

---- http://www.google.com/froogle?q=Sachtler+DV-6

and the The Miller DS-10 combos seem to be around $1200

----- http://www.google.com/froogle?q=Miller+DS-...=Search+Froogle

well, I'm still torn about the Carbon Fiber models (sans spreaders), because the one Gitzo CF I tried (the G1325), was really sturdy and light, but perhaps the thing I'm missing is that light is not necessarily a good thing after you're done carrying it, if you happen to be in a windy situation.... what are those devices that I see on some that allow you to hang weights or water bags from the middle? Some also are telescoping to add height.

Rik Andino · April 24, 2005

Thanks for the quick response, and info about 1 vs 2 & 3 stage, and I definitely plan to go with a bowl, just not sure about the pros and cons of 75 vs 100mm.

So, the 510 won't be overkill for the low weight of the DVX100A?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The 510 might be overkill for the DVX100a

But it'll allow you to use your tripod with other heavier cameras if the need be

So in the future if you move up the ladder you won't need to get another tripod.

The 100mm bowl is the way to go

Because it is very difficult to find jibs or hi-hats what go with the 75mm bowl

Here is a good deal on a Bogen 516 head with 31

And it's cheaper than you projected

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller...sku=5458&is=REG

Check B&H for tripods they've got lots of deals

http://www.bhphotovideo.com

Good Luck

drew_town · April 24, 2005

The 510 might be overkill for the DVX100a

If you're looking a Bogen's specs on the 510 you might think so because it seems as if it's built for bigger cameras. I've shot with a PD-150 on a 510 and loved how it handled. I think they're a little exagerant on their specs. A 316 head is the one built for larger cameras.

Phil Rhodes · April 24, 2005

Hi,

I take the position that it's almost impossible to overspec a tripod. I've been told that the Vision 3 is "overkill" for my camera, but I completely disagree - I suffered an underspecified tripod for years while I was shooting Hi8 (on a largeish camera) and it's miserable - there's nothing worse than that slightly amateurish instability lent to a shot by an overloaded head and legs.

Also, of course, when you upgrade, or rent better for an important shoot, you can probably keep using it. I don't know that I'd put an F900 on a Vision 3, but it'd probably take a Varicam or an SDX-900.

Phil

Brian Wells · April 25, 2005

Hi,

Abel Cinetech had the Cartoni Focus tripod setup at NAB last week and I had the pleasure of checking it out. I, like others here, am a recreational shooter with the DVX100. My rig consists of a Vocas mattebox and soon hopefully a Chrosziel follow focus as well. Naturally, I was looking for a tripod that would be a good match for my current MiniDV equipment and would also last for a while as I would like to evenutally use one of the smaller S16 cameras with it. (A-Minima, for example)

Having used a Vinten Vision 3 before, I was pretty much set on getting one, but figured it to be worth a shot to check out some others as well, and honestly I liked the Cartoni Focus better than the Vinten and the Miller Solo DV10 I also compared. Of course, I will acknowledge that I am a student and have not owned world class equipment before, but I have used some of it at times. I really liked this tripod. I think the dual stage carbon fiber legs and Focus head are about $1,875.00. ZGC and Abel Cinetech appear to sell them.. I think it's pretty new as I haven't yet seen it on B&H. Hope this helps confuse your decision making even further! j/k : )

I would imagine everyone would agree the best way to find the tripod that fits best for your individual needs is to try several of them out. I did that, and for me and my tastes, I like the Cartoni Focus the best. Certainly others will have a different opinion. Does anyone have any constructive concerns about a Cartoni purchase? I liked the way it feels, but I wonder about the brand reputation, reliability, and service. Anyone care to comment? I feel I've done all I can in finding something I like and am kind of looking for some help and advice in solidifying that decision. Thanks.

brian wells

amarillo texas

student / video cameraman

Shawn Murphy · April 25, 2005

Brian,

Thanks for the additional info, I do appreciate it (even if it does add another dimension to the mix!). Of course in an ideal world we would all get to go to NAB and try everything out, or better yet, we could all go and work on a real film set with every possible set of sticks and head, but alas, I went to my local pro photo house here in Seattle (Glazer's), and the only carry Bogen/Gitzo/Manfrotto.

I'll search around to see if I can find additional feedback on the Cartoni stuff:

"Cartoni Focus is my new dream tripod. It requires zero adjustments to feel incredible."

---- http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?t...t=Cartoni+Focus

"Putting together my new tripod system, which seems to be taking forever, I've come down to two possible heads: O'Connor Ultimate DV and the Cartoni Focus. Both of these are 100mm..."

----- http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?...t=Cartoni+Focus

"For an XL1s, I'd personally go for a Sachtler DV6 or a Cartoni Focus. The Focus has a more flexible counterbalance system, but I tend to prefer Sachtler's of drag module step adjustment."

---- http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?...t=Cartoni+Focus

"I don't own a DS-10 but I've tried it once and from what I know about it (single fluid module with friction boost), I personally would go for something different. But the next level is a good $600 more than a DS-10 kit. This next level include the Vinten Vision 3, Satchler DV6 and Cartoni Focus"

---- http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?...t=Cartoni+Focus

And I was thinking I had narrowed it down to the DS-10 (or 20) and perhaps the Gitzo G1325 or G1348 CF legs!

Brian Wells · April 25, 2005

"Cartoni Focus is my new dream tripod. It requires zero adjustments to feel incredible."

Though generally a no-no to post the similar messages on multiple boards,

this is one instance I will admit to doing. I really liked that tripod.

brian wells

Shawn Murphy · April 25, 2005

"Cartoni Focus is my new dream tripod. It requires zero adjustments to feel incredible."

Though generally a no-no to post the similar messages on multiple boards,

this is one instance I will admit to doing. I really liked that tripod.

brian wells

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Brian,

I'll have to read some of the faqs regarding the etiquette around posting to more than one board, I didn't realize that was deemed a no-no ;-)

Shawn Murphy · April 27, 2005

And the winner is...

The Miller 832 (a DS10 based kit). I almost bought the Cartoni Focus, but I couldn't find it in stock and needed to have a rig for a Saturday shoot... well, this way when I do try the Cartoni, I'll at least be able to compare it to my own experience with the DS-10.

(and while I was at it I also picked up a shotgun mic: the AUDIO TECHNICA AT4073A - hope that was a good choice (subjective perhaps, but the forum reviews seemed to be good)

Components:

DS10 Fluid Head

2-Stage 75mm Alloy Tripod

DS 2-Stage TripodAbove Ground Spreader

ENG/EFP Tripod Rubber Feet

Pan Handle (non-telescopic)

DS10 Camera Plate

Tripod Shoulder Strap

Arrow & DS Softcases

DS10 Fluid Head Features:

75mm ball levelling with bubble level

DV/DVCAM camcorders to 5kg

True Fluid Pan and tilt with adjustable drag

Selectable counterbalance system

Slide release camera plate

Camera plate choice: 1/4" & 3/8" or 1/4" & pin

DS 2-Stage TripodAbove Ground Spreader Features:

Suits 2- Stage model ENG & EFP tripods

Matches with #550 Rubber Feet pads

Telescopic arm extensions

Quick release pin & eyelet detachment

Folds down within tripod legs

THANK YOU EVERYONE FOR YOUR INPUT!!! Greatly appreciated.

~Shawn

Brian Wells · April 28, 2005

And the winner is...
The Miller 832 (a DS10 based kit). I almost bought the Cartoni Focus, but I couldn't find it in stock and needed to have a rig for a Saturday shoot... well, this way when I do try the Cartoni, I'll at least be able to compare it to my own experience with the DS-10.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That would be my choice as well. Turns out they're not shipping the Focus anytime soon.

Truth is, I would love to have both. : )

Trust your shoot will go excellent!

Best wishes,

Brian

Preston Herrick · April 28, 2005

FWIW, I had some Miller carbon fibre sticks once and didn't like them. Light but too flexible for my taste - just the tension in the head was enough to twist everything. I'll take the weight if it means rock solid support.

Shawn Murphy · April 28, 2005

FWIW, I had some Miller carbon fibre sticks once and didn't like them. Light but too flexible for my taste - just the tension in the head was enough to twist everything. I'll take the weight if it means rock solid support.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for the additional info. I opted against the carbon fibre (originally I was going to get a set of Gitzo CF legs), but went with the Miller Alloy (the weight difference was only about 1.2 lbs more for the alloy)