Shooting on Low Contrast Print Stock

[Freya Black]

Has anyone here shot on Low contrast print stock succesfully? The 10ASA stuff.

 

I'm considering running it through a hand cranked camera and I'm assuming the latitude won't be great, so I'm worried that it might not be a good combination?

 

I also wonder whether it is available in single perf, being as it is a print stock?

 

I welcome any insights!

 

love

 

Freya

[John Pytlak RIP]

Has anyone here shot on Low contrast print stock succesfully? The 10ASA stuff.

 

I'm considering running it through a hand cranked camera and I'm assuming the latitude won't be great, so I'm worried that it might not be a good combination?

 

I also wonder whether it is available in single perf, being as it is a print stock?

 

I welcome any insights!

 

love

 

Freya

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Compared to a camera negative film, any print film is very high in contrast and has very little latitude. Since it is designed to make prints from an orange-masked color negative on a printer with a tungsten lamp run at lower voltage for increased lamp life, the blue-sensitive layer is MUCH faster than the green or red, and considerable orange-colored filtration will be needed for even tungsten illumination. And of course, it has print film (long pitch) perforations and does not have rem-jet.

 

http://www.kodak.com/US/plugins/acrobat/en...printfilm04.pdf

 

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/products...d=0.1.4.8&lc=en

[Dominic Case]

It is probably ONLY available in single perf.

 

It will have "long pitch" perforations (0.3000" instead of 0.2994" for neg) - probably not a problem but might run a bit noisily).

 

Latitude is not a word I'd use in the context of shooting pos stock in a camera.

 

Even the low con print film has a gamma of around 3 (compared with neg at around 0.5), and it will probably record a range of about 3 to 4 stops from white to black. You will of course get a negative image on the film itself, needing a print or transfer to get a pos image. The results will be real "soot and whitewash" with not a lot in between.

 

It's balanced for tungsten light through neg masking (orange). Two 85 filters would get you close to a neutral balance in daylight.

 

It's on polyester base - bring your scissors.

[Freya Black]

It is probably ONLY available in single perf.

 

It will have "long pitch" perforations (0.3000" instead of 0.2994" for neg) - probably not a problem but might run a bit noisily).

 

Latitude is not a word I'd use in the context of shooting pos stock in a camera.

 

Even the low con print film has a gamma of around 3 (compared with neg at around 0.5), and it will probably record a range of about 3 to 4 stops from white to black. You will of course get a negative image on the film itself, needing a print or transfer to get a pos image.  The results will be real "soot and whitewash" with not a lot in between.

 

It's balanced for tungsten light through neg masking (orange). Two 85 filters would get you close to a neutral balance in daylight.

 

It's on polyester base - bring your scissors.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Great information! Thankyou to both of you!

 

I thought it might mostly be available in double perf being a print stock but there are plenty of projectors that use single perf of course, so that is good.

 

Strangely I was worried by the name "low contrast print stock" that there might not be enough contrast, as I have fairly contrasty images in mind so that is also good to hear. lol! Sounds like it is very extreme which might be interesting! :)

 

I knew there would be virtually no latitude and I'm a little worried as to what that might mean in terms of hand cranking, obviously hand cranking will lead to variations in exposure which may not be so much of a problem but it will also mean it will be harder to get the exposure bang on which could obviously be a real problem with no latitude, what do you think?

 

The polyester base means tape splices only I assume? What do you mean about the scissors?

 

I should add that I'm planning to develop myself in a tank and to telecine the footage.

 

Would there be an orange mask on black and white print stock? I'm wondering if the colour cast will be that noticeable on top of all the other stuff anyway, and couldn't I remove it in post? Shooting through a couple of filters on 10ASA film seems like it might not be worth the trouble!

 

Thanks again! :)

 

love

 

Freya

[Freya Black]

Compared to a camera negative film, any print film is very high in contrast and has very little latitude.  Since it is designed to make prints from an orange-masked color negative on a printer with a tungsten lamp run at lower voltage for increased lamp life, the blue-sensitive layer is MUCH slower than the green or red, and considerable orange-colored filtration will be needed for even tungsten illumination.  And of course, it has print film (long pitch) perforations and does not have rem-jet.

 

http://www.kodak.com/US/plugins/acrobat/en...printfilm04.pdf

 

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/products...d=0.1.4.8&lc=en

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So anything coloured blue will come out black presumably?

 

I assume the blue layer is so much darker that turning up the blue in post won't help that much?

 

No rem jet is good if I'm going to stick it in a tank myself, I hate the thought of removing that awful backing!

 

I don't mind the film having a strange and different look however, but I would obviously like the various details (eg facial features) in the film to be clear. Would it be worthwhile doing strange things with makeup to make sure that facial features are visible or something? In what way would the lack of blue affect things in practice?

 

I should point out, I have black and white film in mind if that affects things significantly.

 

love

 

Freya

[John Pytlak RIP]

So anything coloured blue will come out black presumably?

 

I assume the blue layer is so much darker that turning up the blue in post won't help that much?

 

No rem jet is good if I'm going to stick it in a tank myself, I hate the thought of removing that awful backing!

 

I don't mind the film having a strange and different look however, but I would obviously like the various details (eg facial features) in the film to be clear. Would it be worthwhile doing strange things with makeup to make sure that facial features are visible or something? In what way would the lack of blue affect things in practice?

 

I should point out, I have black and white film in mind if that affects things significantly.

 

love

 

Freya

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

If you shoot color print film without filtration, the "negative" will be mostly from blue exposure (yellow dye). To balance to a neutral image, you will need lots of orange filtration (e.g., use two 85 filters as a starting point, as suggested by Dominic).

 

Since your "negative" will not have any orange colored coupler masking, you will need a special printer or telecine setup to compensate.

 

For B&W origination, a high contrast panchromatic film like 3369 might be what you want to try:

 

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/products...1.4.6.6.8&lc=en

[Freya Black]

If you shoot color print film without filtration, the "negative" will be mostly from blue exposure (yellow dye).  To balance to a neutral image, you will need lots of orange filtration (e.g., use two 85 filters as a starting point, as suggested by Dominic).

 

Since your "negative" will not have any orange colored coupler masking, you will need a special printer or telecine setup to compensate.

 

For B&W origination, a high contrast panchromatic film like 3369 might be what you want to try:

 

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/products...1.4.6.6.8&lc=en

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sorry, I think I confused you all for a moment there. I should have said I had black and white stocks in mind, I've never heard of anyone shooting on colour sprint stocks before but just found a whole thread mentioning it!

 

http://www.cinematography.com/forum2004/in...wtopic=5845&hl=

 

Which is really interestng. I seem to remember having a conversation with someone about a film they made and I'm sure they said they had used "low contrat print stock"

but I can not find mention of such a product on the kodak site now.

 

For Black and white it seems like there might actually be a few options!

 

EASTMAN High Contrast Panchromatic Film 5369

(2369 / 3369 ESTAR Base)

[As mentioned by John]

 

EASTMAN High Contrast Positive Film 5363/7363

[As mentioned in above thread]

 

KODAK Panchromatic Sound Recording Film 2374 (ESTAR)

 

All look interesting. Perhaps there are others worth exploring too? I would be interested to know which give the most normal reproduction of skin/people. Which would give the weirdst reproduction, and last but not least, which would be cheapest! :)

 

If theres anything worth looking at amongst the other B&W Print/Intermediate stocks, then I would be interested to know. I'm intending to process as negative BTW if that makes any difference. Perhaps stocks designed for internegative applications would give better results.

 

I'm quite excited by the amount of Black and white, print stocks etc there are! :)

[John Pytlak RIP]

You really want to use a panchromatic stock, unless you want to have the "look" of the old blue-sensitive or ortho stocks used in the days of silent films ("blank" skies, dark reproduction of skin tones and reds).

 

Some stocks are NOT available with short-pitch (camera) perforations (BH-1866 for 35mm, 1R-2994 for 16mm).

 

Remember, you are trying to use the films in ways they were not designed for.

[Marty Hamrick]

Just out of curiosity,what kind of project is this?I've actually seen this done in a student film once.It was an interesting effect.

[Freya Black]

Just out of curiosity,what kind of project is this?I've actually seen this done in a student film once.It was an interesting effect.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hiya marty! Actually I've got a number of things in mind, Firstly I need to run some camera tests, in some ways this might not be a goood film to do this with because of the perferation thing, but at least it would test the optics.

 

However, I can't really afford to "waste" film doing camera tests, so I will probably attempt to shoot something at the same time.

 

Things I have in mind are perhaps some sort of dream sequence for a dv based little movie I have, or possibly even a music video! It is sounding like it might be great for both! At least all the things people are warning me about sound really interesting.

 

Also I would like to try doing some thing along the lines of photograms on film and other such stuff. Experimental things.

 

Lastly I have just finally, ater a loooong time, got a hand crank made for a very old 16mm camera I have. I need to test this, but I also have a love for German Expressionism so I'm quite tempted by some of this silent film look, but maybe that will be going too far for people.

 

Right this second I'm wondering if I couldn't solarise the stuff too! *giggle*

 

I have a problem tho that I don't really know exactly what these stocks might look like. I've only seen one film done with the stuff and now I'm not completely sure what they used!

 

And also it seems like theres much more of a range to choose from than I expected! :)

 

love

 

Freya

[Freya Black]

You really want to use a panchromatic stock, unless you want to have the "look" of the old blue-sensitive or ortho stocks used in the days of silent films ("blank" skies, dark reproduction of skin tones and reds).

 

Some stocks are NOT available with short-pitch (camera) perforations (BH-1866 for 35mm, 1R-2994 for 16mm).

 

Remember, you are trying to use the films in ways they were not designed for.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I was expecting it all to look like ortho stocks, hence my question about make up earlier! This is even better, so I actually have a choice of ortho or panchromatic?

 

I assume the sound recording film is the ortho stuff?

 

So you are saying that *some* of the film *is* available even with normal camera perfs!???

 

I'm going back to look at the specs on the kodak site again!

 

This sounds much better than I expected.

 

love

 

Freya

[John Pytlak RIP]

The technical data for each motion picture film on the Kodak website has the spectral sensitivity curve:

 

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/products/

 

For example:

 

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/products...1.4.6.6.8&lc=en

 

 

The on-line catalog lists the formats available, including perforation type:

 

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/products...=0.1.4.26&lc=en

[Freya Black]

The on-line catalog lists the formats available, including perforation type:

 

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/products...=0.1.4.26&lc=en

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm suprised this information isn't in the technical data.

 

I looked at the on-line catalogue thing however, and it doesn't seem to tell me anything. I've stared and stared at it till my head hurts. It appears to say that 8 iand 10 are both short pitch, in double and single perf, however having got the numbers 8 and 10 there seems nothing to do with them!

 

Perhaps it is a list of perferations that might be available for any film you come across or something. It doesn't seem to make any sense. The printfilm .pdf earlier, seems to be the same pdf but with some actual useful information on the end, like what I assume are minimum roll sizes.

 

Perhaps we should just assume that all print, intermediate and sound stocks are long pitch? I would imagine this to be the case but I can't be sure.

 

The quick Referance guide is handy tho. Strangely I was searching for my copy of this the other day but I must have accidently deleted it. It's a shame it doesn't list the prices anymore tho but it's great to have a copy again.

 

love

 

Freya

[Freya Black]

Ah I think I worked it out as I just found the intermediate film pdf. It seems that only some of the intermediate film stocks are available in short pitch and none of the print films. I also found out that 16mm long pitch is called 1R-3000 at least it is in single perf.

 

love

 

Freya

Edited May 3, 2005 by Freya

[John Pytlak RIP]

Perforations:

 

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/...esP.shtml#perfs

 

35mm cameras normally use BH-1866

 

35mm sound recording film uses KS-1866

 

35mm prints normally use KS-1870

 

16mm cameras normally use 1R-2994

 

16mm prints normally use 1R-3000

 

Intermediate film that will be contact printed to make a master positive, then step printed to make the duplicate negative uses the DH-1870 perf.

[Freya Black]

Well the 7363 is looking the best for possible camera use as it has short pitch perforations and is described as "medium speed", whatever that means in this context ;) Sadly it seems it is only available in double perf but I suppose it's not that big of a deal.

In fact it might even be a good thing if the film is A wind?

 

It seems that a lot of the intermediate films are short pitch which is useful.

 

The sound stock looks good too, it is single perf and B wind.

 

love

 

Freya

[Boone Hudgins]

Isn't there a technique of making an interpositive on high contrast print film and then an internegative that's supposed to look like cross processing? How would this look on black and white film?

 

Would it be anywhere near what Freya is looking for?

[David Mullen ASC]

Cross-processing is done in color deliberately to get strong, weird, grainy colors with a lot of contrast. No reason to do it if you want a b&w image because all you'd get is more contrast. There are simpler ways of getting a high-con b&w image.

[John Pytlak RIP]

Cross-processing is done in color deliberately to get strong, weird, grainy colors with a lot of contrast.  No reason to do it if you want a b&w image because all you'd get is more contrast.  There are simpler ways of getting a high-con b&w image.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

For B&W, you affect contrast by the choice of film stocks and/or the development time. You can also choose among developers (e.g., D-96 vs. D-97). Most of the data is in the published technical data for each film. For example, here is the data for 5231:

 

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/products...1.4.4.8.6&lc=en

 

 

And 5369:

 

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/products....8&lc=en#Graphs

 

[Boone Hudgins]

Cross-processing is done in color deliberately to get strong, weird, grainy colors with a lot of contrast.  No reason to do it if you want a b&w image because all you'd get is more contrast.  There are simpler ways of getting a high-con b&w image.

I was thinking more in the realm of, would making an IP on print stock create a similar look to shooting on print stock? But way more controllable?

 

Of course, there's always just a red filter.

[John Pytlak RIP]

I was thinking more in the realm of, would making an IP on print stock create a similar look to shooting on print stock?  But way more controllable?

 

Of course, there's always just a red filter.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It certainly will be much higher in contrast. And an additive printer offers quite a bit of control. But you need to pay attention to the type and pitch of the perforations to get a steady image. Don't expect "normal" color.

 

As a "future filmmaker", I hope you realize that all these techniques are non-standard, and most productions use the films as they were designed to be used. Feel free to experiment, but learn the basics too.

[Boone Hudgins]

Yes, yes, of course. I'd just read about that a while back and thought I'd throw it in the pot. It's definitely not something I'd try right out of the gate.