Häakon

Not yet. :) Same one.

I think there are a good deal of people who appreciate RED's pristine picture, and are enthused to be able to capture moving images at such great resolution without having something in the pipeline to muck it up. If you want noise, buy an HVX. Seriously though, unless you're hell-bent on making the next triple bleach-bypassed "Se7en" wanna-be flick, can you give a compelling reason to want your images to look so grainy? I think it's just an aesthetic that most of us are comfortable with because that's all we've been exposed to (pun intended) our whole lives. I honestly believe that as new generations of film audiences become accustomed to movies shot with cameras like RED, "noise" and "grain" are going to become undeisred artifacts of the past, associated with an archaic format that will be used less and less as time marches on. Sure, plenty of people will still shoot film - as noted, some will have aesthetic reasons for using it, while others will continue to view it as a "purer," "organic," analog medium (like vinyl has in the world of audio). I wager however that the majority will be shooting digitally sooner than later. Apple actually had a ProRes demonstration in their booth which coincidentally had this very same Red footage displayed on one monitor and an uncompressed 2K film scan on the other. The biggest difference I noticed immidiately was that the amount of grain in the film sample looked downright ridiculous compared to the stuff shot with RED. It reminded me of one of those Disney DVD commercials where they remaster the old film footage and they show you side-by-side clips of the original and the restored movie that's clean and vibrant and everything you'd want your four-year-old to see. Granted, I have no idea what the film was they were showing and the grain could've been intensified by an older, less dense stock, but the point remains that the RED images are pristine and beautiful and have enough resolution (finally) to hold up to pretty much anything else that's shot out there. Certainly this is by no means the "end" - there are still latitude hurdles to overcome and the images will undoutedbly continue to get bigger and bigger (with better ways to display it) as advancements continue to be made. But I have always been confused by those who would insist on a dirtier picture across the board just because that's the way it has "always been."

There are plenty of mirrors: http://www.proapptips.com/redmirror/crossing1.mov http://www.24puser.com/crossing1.mov http://www.runjumpfly.net/crossing1.mov http://www.pixelquestfilms.com/crossing1.mov http://simplemente.net/crossing1.mov http://www.3dspark.com/RED_One/crossing1.mov http://www.appliedvisual.com/redclips/crossing1.mov

Hi Stephen, Sorry, I'm still failing to see your logic. The topic title is "red delivery beta starts in 30 days, endusers in 90 days...." Yes, I do think it's quite remarkable if that happens, and yes, I think there are some (quite vocal) users here that are going to have to eat their words upon delivery of the camera if it's within that time frame. What 31-60fps has to do with this is beyond me.

> 30p onboard was never a part of the spec; there was just an error in assumption that "onboard 4K recording" and "4K recording at up to 60p" could be used in tandem. Anyway, what does that have to do with this topic?

I'm sure the demand for the D20 would be much greater if it was priced similarly to RED and available for purchase. As it stands, it is out of the league of the greater numbers who would demand it. And whose camera is already on the market? ;)

Hi David, The only point I was responding to was the post I replied to, in which the author stated, "I dont know what percentage of productions are currently being shot on D20s, but it is a lot more than those being shot on Red cameras and it will remain this way for a significant amount of time." Given that there are a relatively low number of available D20s, they cannot be purchased (must be rented), and are vastly more expensive, no, I do not agree with his post. The number of Red owners alone will eclipse the number of productions made with the D20. Beyond that, whatever Arri does or doesn't do is their business... but I think I got the point just fine. :)

Based on Jim's post, it's closer to 30 days / 150 days. Still, that's quite remarkable and a lot of people on this forum will be eating some humble pie in about five months...

Okay, we get it already... the camera isn't available yet. This reference is old and tired. I have to disagree with you, however, on the speculation that the number of productions shot on the D20 will remain "a lot higher" than the RED after its release for a "significant amount of time." We know already that there is a backlog of over 1,000 RED preorders and even if only half of those sell from the outset (which I think is a vastly underestimated number), that means there will already be over 20 times the number of RED cameras on the market than D20s. Given its (much) lower pricepoint, coupled with the fact that the camera can actually be owned, it's foolish to think that there are going to continue to be more productions shot on the D20. That's not to say the RED productions are going to be any better - obviously the demographic of RED users is significantly wider than that of the D20 - but in terms of sheer volume, RED will eclipse Arri's digital department quite rapidly.

The common formats for discussion of this (and other) cameras are "4K, 2K, 1080p, and 720p," where the first two tags reference the horizontal and the last two represent the vertical. I have even seen people refer to 1080p as "1K," which is obviously quite wrong, but that's probably where the confusion stems from.

Say it with me now: p r e - p r o d u c t i o n s a m p l e. . . And, "hell," the DSLR world has always been a step ahead of digital motion picture for obvious reasons. You also know that RED shoots better than 8 bit; they haven't released any direct RAW footage yet. Take a deep breath.

That excuse is tiresome and loses validity with every passing day. It's not as if the camera is still three years off. If you have work to shoot now, use whatever it is you're already shooting with and stop whining. It doesn't change the fact that in four or five months something better than whatever you're using now is coming down the pipe and those of us who care about the quality of the images are interested in constructively discussing the pros and cons of the system. Pointless negative banter is just a waste of bandwidth. I'll gladly put my money on the camera showing up before the second coming of your deity. :)

Belief in the unproven is what motivates most of this world.

66db of dynamic range is part of their published spec. You can see the page here: http://red.com/techspecs.htm I realize that means nothing to you until you can hold the camera in your hands, but I thought I would at least clarify that this is where the information is coming from. No one on the RED team has published a claim of "15 stops of latitude."

Oh sure, no question about it. I know the Red team has already implemented lots of suggestions they received - they're definitely listening. My response was to those on the critical side who keep retorting with the "the camera doesn't exist yet" mantra. For those who can't appreciate anything until it's in a retail box, that's their perogative - but the timeline has been well established for months and they shouldn't be expecting production-level sample images from a camera which is not yet ready for production.

Read Jan's quote again, he didn't say anything about insulting anyone. What he did say is that your attitude and choice of language is less than professional. You guys spin things here worse than Republicans!

Red has said that their projection for engineering targets is late December from day one. They haven't promised a thing that they haven't lived up to. Reservations were a way to gague customer demand for initial production, are completely refundable, and completely voluntary. Red will "put their money where their mouth is and produce a camera" around March or April, again, as they have said from day one. It's really not that difficult! Many people like to talk about and offer their suggestions to a company who is actually listening to those suggestions - something that's rare in this industry. But no one is forcing you to participate or add to the "conflict." If you'd rather wait until the camera is completely finished and has a barcode on the side, you are more than welcome to remove yourself from the discussion until that time. I don't think anyone here would mind very much.

And yet, he still has a need to call people morons. Is the apparently limitless knowledge worthwhile if you're still an a**ho** at the end of the day?

Of course, he conveniently left out: RED- Meanings: Intense Passion. Devotion, Demanding. Strong emotions such as love and anger. Life blood. Masculine. Eliminating the useless. The Flame that purifies. Mars. Passion, Action, Desire, Strength, Hot, Courage, Daring, Excitement, Outer worldly action. Will-Power, Deep Passion for everything life has. Survival Issues. The Element of Fire. Intense activity. "Eliminating the useless." I like that... thanks Leo. :)

Just FYI, they already have over 600 reservations. No building limits over 500 units. :)

If the HVX had delivered everything they had promised, I would still concede that it would be a very capable tool for independent film production. As it is, the performance of the camera does not live up to their claims (even claims they continued to make after the camera was released). Since Red has shown footage already from their sensor, the biggest concerns I have with their system have already been addressed. If you don't like the images, that is completely your perogative. I've made plenty of posts since the HVX came out, so perhaps you and I have just not crossed the same paths lately. I must say, it sure is nice to see your threats and exclamation marks again... I hope they have treated you well in the last several months! My name is my name and frankly I don't care what you think of it. I discussed the rules with the forum creator long ago and I don't need your approval to voice my opinions. Lastly, it seems that others are in agreement that if you feel there is no point in discussing a camera that is not "for sale" yet, then no one is forcing you to participate here. The RED team has said that they welcome input and suggestions for their camera, and that is what these kinds of discussions exist for.

As a product in a sealed, retail box, no the Red camera doesn't exist. However, they have successfully developed their own sensor, shared with us images that they have used it to create, and have stated - repeatedly - that they are on track to deliver everything that they have promised. It's okay to be skeptical - especially about a company who has no prior experience developing or selling cameras - but it's not as if their team is made up of dummies, either. There is more than Jim's word at stake here, including Graeme's and Tim's, who are both very respected in their industries. If you would prefer to just stay out of the conversation for a few months until a working camera is produced, I don't have a problem with that. But to sit around and day after day keep spouting the same "it doesn't exist yet" mantra is both annoying and not productive for anyone.

No, that's not what I said at all. I don't mind having an intelligent discussion with you, but first you have to start accumulating some intelligence. What I said was, RED is aiming to close the gap. We obviously aren't there yet - people are still shooting film. Obviously faster frame rates and post workflow are hurdles that need to be overcome, and that's why the still world has (and always will) acheived the transition first. And fortunately, whether or not you personally believe that the technology to surpass the quality of 35mm celluloid is coming or not is irrelevant; it's clear that it is.

The context of RED is motion picture. The vast majority of major motion pictures are shot on 35mm film. In terms of resolution, digital has handily caught up to 35mm in the still world. RED aims to close the gap on the motion picture side, and they very well may do so. I'm sorry I have to spell everything out for you in basic sentences, but hopefully you have a better understanding of the situation now.

Sorry, I wasn't planning to use RED to shoot my child's first steps or my neighbor's wedding. Of course, one has that option. Your mileage may vary. As for your diatribe over club music, the reason DJs spin records is because there is an art in mixing that you can't recreate with a CD. It has nothing to do with perceived quality.