Robert Houllahan
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Posts posted by Robert Houllahan
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In respect to Robert's posts above (I somewhat agree on your 2K scan comments, based on what I have seen here in London at Todd-AO, however, any uncompressed HD option to hard disk is much welcome
I think we need to separate HD (Hard Disk) from HD (High Definition) as HD is often used to describe both. I was talking about Standard Definition (NTSC or PAL) transfered as a 10bit 4:2:2 over SDI as many Telecine houses (such as Spectra or us at Cinelab) are doing using commonly available Mac/PC and Decklink/AJA hardware. A scan to HD (High definition) such as a Spirit with a Super-8 gate will do is a whole other more expensive beast and a true 1080P 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 super-8 scan will be in the same class as a 2K scan you can get from a Spirit, etc. And then you have people with projectors and camera running a aireal projection, I set one of these up at Cinelab but could not get the same kind of quality as we get from a highly modified Rank.
-Rob-
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Is uncompressed enough, or does it have to be "24P" uncompressed?.
There is no progressive SD video format, any telecine (real one like a Rank or Spirit) scans progressive and outputs interlaced for SD ntsc or pal. Any real suite will do this over a SDI 10 bit pipe, no firewire or YUV analog signals. If you are using a mac you can record this all digital 10bit 4:2:2 video signal as DV, Dvcp50, 8bit 10bit uncompressed, etc as these are just settings in the capture preset panel.
-Rob-
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This is the link to 10 minute flick school, please don't delete this post it is for educational purposes.
10 minutes is too much, if you need to learn how to make cheap films nobody will remember and front like you do everything just get a crap camera from best buy and start shooting and save the rest of the 9 minutes and 54 seconds for jerking off...
Hula
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Single frame capability or just video?
If you have a reasonably recent incarnation of a telecine it has SDI out of the TK or Color Corrector which is easily piped to a Blackmagic or Aja card for recording uncompressed. Single frame for super-8 is a joke unless it is a real 2k scan, i.e. "single frame" is a guy in his basement with a projector and a DV camera.
-rob-
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I had a Baselight-4 loaded with allot of demo footage for three months, I thought the 4K northlight scans looked best but all the Origin demo footage was really impressive, the only real 35mil alternative I thought too bad no nice grain...
-Rob-
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I have to shoot a very short scene and I have also a very short piece of 7222 neg. All the rest of the film was shot with foma. The question is, can I shoot with 7222 and develop it as reversal BW? I know it's possible with orwo and ilford, but not sure about the double-x. I presume that the main difference (appart from iso ratings) is that the base is thinner than tri-x and maybe some difference in halide shape? Thanks for the help!
richard
We have run XX22 as reversal before, if run and shot normal (as 200iso) it comes out very dark and muddy, you need to rate it as 50iso and or dump as much light on as possible and run it in the reversal chemistry as a push 2 to get a relatively thick exposure, it will be nasty and grainy but if that is what you are looking for... it is possible and we have run it here at Cinelab you just need to have your lab run it as a push 2...
-Rob-
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Gimme a break - this isn't capitalism - this is exploiting an inefficiency for personal gain,
That isn't Capitalism? Damn I guess I have to go burn all those books then.....I was just at Harvard Business School Thursday, I wonder how they will react to having to burn their library down, oh well I call them up and ask on monday...
Rob
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I had a talking head 2 camera shoot at Harvard business school yesterday, big deal professor there limited time, etc... I rented 2 EX-1's from Boston camera co (boscam.com) for the shoot I am happy with the cameras overall. I shot 60i in SP mode (for run time) with 2 16G cards for each camera. I filled one card each and downloaded the contents to my laptop on site as a backup after switching both cards to read-only the download was fast and I opted to retain the 2 cards and the reader for another day to download again to my G5. Sony's FCP plugin seems very good and stable with fast download speeds the clips go into FCP seamlessly so no problems so far.
The camera was nice to use, for it's small form factor, I had both cams on sticks with tram's and lectro's for each speaker with a pair of sennheiser shotguns on booms, before I shut of the camera's internal mic's I noticed that even touching the camera lightly showed up in audio. The image seems very good and the lens on full manual works well except for the zoom control which I could not get a good clean start from and the first 1/6th of the zoom paddle did not do anything so that is a minus on what otherwise seems like a winner from Sony.
I was much more impressed with the EX1 than the HVX overall and I do not think i could have fit 2 bigger cameras into this setting so a small camera with a full 1080X1920 1/2" chip set is nice, even though I did not us it at full potential..
Card recording is a little sketchy to me especially if you plan to erase the cards (as I will, they are rentals) no originals but the SxS cards seem robust and the software seems good, I do not know how much cards are for this camera, are they P2 pricing or more reasonable? For the money involved for this shoot I would seriously consider buying cards as "originals" if they were $2-300.00 each...
-Rob-
-Rob-
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The words of the great Rodney King come to mind, "Can't we just all get along?" Red's got a functional camera, seems to get more functional all the time, I suggested to Phil that he might want to start sourcing parts and build his own camera if he feels so passionate about it. Jim seems to have been a bit humbled by the whole process. Maybe a little peaceful discourse about the red and this type of camera in general would be nice here, hmmmm...
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That's pretty cool, really. I don't know why it wouldn't be a true claim, except for the fact that not all 1 inch/ CCD c-mount lenses cover S16. I have some and most don't cover S16 and while I like them, some of them look better than others.
I just wish more HD cameras (HVX 200-like 1" sensor cam) were outfitted with c mounts. Then I could use some of my nicer c-mount cine lenses on them . . .
Are you sure they are 1" lenses not 3/4" or 1/2" I THINK A 1" lens should cover S16 easily, the Kowa's look great i may just buy a 8mm and a 12mm for a filmo S16 project I am putting together.
-Rob-
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I think his point was that even the best top-dollar DI can't beat a simple contact print for purity and quality of image, not that we should expect to have a golden budget for DI on all our films...
Maybe this is why so many prominent studio features have been going back to photochemical finish (There will be blood, American gangster, Batman?, etc..) I think as an indie producer it would become more popular to shoot 4perf and make an answer print for the better quality and lower costs then even a cheap DI.
-Rob-
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Namaste,
Recently purchased the Aaton XTR plus package with the Canon 8-64mm zoom.
The seller advertised the zoom as the good one that is grey not black.
My question: What is the speciality of the grey body from black besides the color of the lens? Like Sharpness, contrast etc.
Your knowledge in this regard is highly appreciated.
With best regards,
I was told by someone very knowledgeable that the black 8-64's had a internal element that was "glued" together with a optical epoxy that was prone to fogging and even failure....
-Rob-
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Are you sure it is ten bit. I have always been told that it was 8 bit. I know the new 2/3 inch camera they have out is a 10 bit HD camera, but the DVCpro HD format 10 bit?
I am pretty sure DvcProHD is 8bit..
-Rob-
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It's a bit confusing as to why, but the Dalsa has a 14-bit A/D that writes data to 16-bit, I guess the other two bits are for something else than what the camera sensor captured. It has something to do with creating headroom for color-correction somehow.
Some sort of dithering or oversampling? I assume that the voltages in the "bucket" on any type of sensor would be somewhat small and the precision that the bucket is quantized at I assume makes up a large portion of the "subtlety" and DR of the picture?? So even if a photo-bucket can read 16 stops of dynamic range the problem of actually reading that electrical signal with enough precision becomes a barrier to the DR of the camera?
-Rob-
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I left my apartment early today on my way to work. I had about 200ft of some 16mm 7239 I bought off ebay a while back. I just shot some footage yesterday. I get to 333 west 39th.
Damn. Sonuvabitch.
I was just there, what, maybe like 7 months ago. Crap. The place is empty. I liked going there. Did they relocate? I'll call them tomorrow (it's late right now).
they went out, sorry, we used to send the E6 we get at Cinelab to them but now send it to Dwaines (k14movies.com) I think Pac-Lab may be running Ektachrome and you could send your B+W reversal to (shameless plug) us at www.cinelab.com (we have a drop at www.standby.org in NYC) or to Pac-Lab I think A-1 lost their lease which forced the closure, not lack of business.. It is always sad to see a lab go out.... :(
-Rob-
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"I do not believe the sensor in the Origin is a "old" "1970's" device,"
Please read my post again. I did not say it is an "old 1970s device" I said it "uses an old 1970s technology".
Your car uses 1880s technology, but I doubt it looks or performs much like the 1880s product.
The enormous advantage of this architecture is that the photosensors also serve as the CCD delay line elements, which means that most of the silicon surface is available for gathering photons, rather than signal processing.
The major disadvantage is that the photocells are still exposed to light while the "down-shunting" process is taking place, producing vertical smearing. This can be alleviated by shunting the charges as quickly as possible, but there is a limit to how quickly this can be done.
The most effective way to eliminate problem this is to incorporate a mechanical shutter, and several Philips/BTS SD broadcast cameras did use precisely this technique.
By reverting to the simple Frame Transfer architecture and a mechanical shutter, Dalsa have managed to squeeze every last ounce of perfromance out of the CCD sensor.
By no means is this meant to imply that Dalsa's 2008 Frame Transfer chip has a performance like a 1970s chip, any more than I would suggest modern movie film is no better than 70s movie film, even though modern films and 70s films still work on exactly the same principles.
I did not know that the dalsa's sensor relied on the mechanical shutter to avoid smearing effects, I suppose building any complex camera system is a series of design decisions and compromises..
Here is an interesting page I found on dalsa's site with a bunch of info about cmos and ccd http://www.dalsa.com/markets/ccd_vs_cmos.asp
I suppose any technology can be made to perform if the engineering can be worked out, audi fielded a very successful diesel powered gtp car the r10-tdi that won at sebring.
I was impressed with the origin footage that I had to look at for a few months, it seemed to have very good dynamic range and good skin tone rendering and color fidelity but I did not think it was as good as ecn scans from the northlight in this regard.
Go 1970's !!
-Rob-
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The Origin does not have an on-chip ADC.
The reason for its high performance is that it uses a very old but very low-noise CCD technology that dates back to the early 1970s. While this is by far the most sensitive of all the electronic imaging technologies, the drawback is that it needs a mechancial shutter to work properly.
Manufacturers like RED have been able to improve the performance of their cameras using microlenses although there is some debate about the desirability of this, as it can cause "portholing" effects with some lenses.
Hmmm, Dalsa actually has their own foundry to produce sensors, such as the ones fitted to the Spirit and Opportunity rovers on Mars, one small example of the company's work. I do not believe the sensor in the Origin is a "old" "1970's" device, in fact the CCD is probably the most optimized for D-Cine work out there , yet.
CCD's regularly work without mechanical shutters in hi end HD video cameras, the mechanical shutter on the Origin is to facilitate the optical viewfinder a hi value added benefit IMO.
The design of the Origin sensor also avoids the use of a rolling shutter by having two CCD's stacked such that a complete frame is dumped back to the underlying ccd frame to be read avoiding any temporal issues with reading the contents of the sensor, also I believe the A/D's on the Origin are the only 16bit ones being used as most are 10-12bits.
I have had Origin 4K footage to work with on a Baselight4 and it looks to me to be a better picture in terms of dynamic range and color fidelity when compared to red footage I have seen. The counter to that is that after a few weeks of Origin rental one could buy a Red...
As I said befor i think the RED is an excellent example of a motivated company building a camera from off the shelf parts and at that it is probably 78% of the quality of the Dalsa for 1/10th the price, pretty good.
-Rob-
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I very much doubt that a majority of us follow -- or agree with -- Phil on this. I sure don't. He's neither stupid nor ignorant, but he's clearly going with emotion over reason on this.
The Red camera is neither perfect nor worthless. To me, it's about where the Arriflex was 70 years ago. It needs some major improvements, but the fundamental shape of it, the architecture, is there. Now is the time for constructive rather than destructive criticism.
-- J.S.
I second this,
I think the RED is a great example of what a small entrepreneurial shop can put together out of off the shelf parts, I don't think it will ever be a no compromise solution but the pics seem good to me for the price. It is certainly a interesting camera even without the fury surrounding it. Interested to see their little camera.
If you want no compromise D-Cine then the Origin is really the only way to go, no rolling shutter, 16bit A/D on chip better dynamic range, etc. It still looks Digital to me but is fully functional and no compromise and of course costs accordingly.
Bottom line is that the red is a camera, it won't make your member bigger, cure cancer or get you a direct line to a higher being and all the hater aide back and forth is just getting tiring, especially as the thing gets closer to being fully functional.
-Rob-
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For some reason a Northlight scan will probably cost more than the Spirit, but it will of course go directly to data by default.
You will want to have some sort of backup of it because the scan will be a bit pricey to do again if you drop a disk down the stairs.
P
These things are too hard to simply calculate but I would think a SD Keycode xfer and a selects scan might be close in price to a complete scan to SR on a Spirit. Deals can be made on all this stuff depending on the time, place and project, YMMV.
Furthermore I feel that a 4:4:4 Spirit classic transfer is a complete waste as the Spirit has half res color ccd line arrays so all additional color sampling (0:2:2) is interpolated. A DSX or Millenium will have true 4:4:4 but watch out for tube life... The newer Spirit 2K and 4K are full bandwidth color but many people feel they do not produce as good a picture as a Arriscan or Northlight.
As with all digital information there is no really good long term backup, maybe LTO tape and a Raid 5 or 6 disk array to transfer to... move quick for thy data will be dust long before the film starts to fade...
-Rob-
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Phil is correct. Here is the way to do it:
Tape to tape is a complete, total, absolute miserable waste of money. Everyone is moving to software based grading systems. Even EFILM uses Lustre for DI work. There's nothing a da Vinci can do that can't be done with a Mac and some rendering time.
I've already done everything here and it works. The goal is to eliminate the expensive post house from the equation as soon as possible. The old school method of using window burns and transferring selected takes from keycode is a thing of the past. Don't waste your money.
One could argue that the mac is allot of rendering time and that a davinci (esp. resolve) can do some things color can not... But for this kind of work a properly equipped Mac-Pro can do it, just keep in mind that a cinema display is not a reference grade monitor....
I think compared to transferring everything to SR a SD transfer to D-Beta (or DvCam or BetaSP) with keycode is a tremendous savings, then you could spend the money for a good selects scan to DPX files instead of the limitation of a Spirit, etc. to SR. A Arri-Scan or Northlight scan to DPX will blow a Spirit or DSX transfer to SR away I feel that the negative scan is probably the most important part of the process as it is the step where you can lose the most fidelity...
-Rob-
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Double X always looked pretty flat to me pull processed.
-Sam
I would try to over expose it a half or so i find it looks better with a bit more light on it, did you consider 7231 pushed 1?
-Rob-
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apocrypha don't count as gospels.
The gospel of Houllahan says:
The first rule about religion club is that you don't talk about religion club. The second rule about religion club is that if you want to talk about religion club go make a movie about it and see if anyone shows up, you could get rich.
Back to the Red camera:
To me specifications only mean so much, a rough estimate of the camera but not descriptive on it's look or handling. People are shooting films with it now, right? films that have distribution attached, so soon everyone will see the result....
Furthermore I guess JJ talked a lot o junk at the beginning and now they're working on backing up the talk with something, it will not be the first or last camera ever made I assume they will get everything working at some point so it will be another camera out there after all the frenzy boils down and people will use it if they like it..
-Rob-
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I know Robert Hates Les Bosher for what he did to him, and actually I support Robert, I think that was messed up, but the other side of that note, Les converted my cam, and it runs like a million dollars
Best
Hate is a strong word, I do not even know the man, and harbor no personal animosity for him. The lens was not super expensive as it was a Canon 15-150 F2.8 zoom made for 1" video cameras, a cheap Super-16 zoom not a 11-165 or 8-64 for which I would have booked a flight to get back. I understand it is a small job and sometimes when you have big jobs that pay your bills a few small jobs sometimes slide.
I know Les had a few problems a while back possibly some medical condition, he has a generally excellent reputation I spoke with him several times in the past. As far as I understand it his work is top notch. I just put a word of caution up because if you need something from him there may be a long delay in getting it.
-Rob-
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Um, OK....
Bottom line, Red is neither a TV camera nor a film camera.
-- J.S.
Data Camera? Like Origin and SI or Phantom where there is no immediate way to get "useable" video out?
-Rob-
Spectra Offering Direct to Hard Drive Telecine
in Super-8
Posted
I am going to be buying a Teranex SDI to HDSDI up converter for Cinelab, shortly, we have a Mac-Pro now with a Decklink HD card. I think it is best to use a specialized box like the Terranex or Rezzer to do the uprez and then capture in 720P or 1080i instead of uprez in FCP or similar. Will it be as good as a Spirit HD transfer? No, but if you are working in a compressed HD format (Like with HVX footage) it may be just right and a fraction of the cost of a real High Definition transfer.
-Rob-