Robert Houllahan

We have been seeing allot of S-8 optically blown up to 16mm from a few film people in Boston as of late, mostly blown up on a JK optical printer. We subsequently answer printed 3 films with S-8 blowups in them (16mm) I was very impressed with the look of this process. I think the S-8 for JFK and Natural Born killers were blown to 35mm optically by a firm in San Francisco (can't remember the name) but I could be wrong.

-Rob-

is the best format I should ask for? Mini DV? I have a cheap mini dv cam

I can use to dump the footage. Or should I do uncompressed quicktime on a hard drive?

 

I don't have a digideck so any advice would be great.

The best quality, even if going to DVD, will be obtained by getting an uncompressed transfer. When you go to dv you get a picture which has already gone through a process which is very similar to the Mprg-2 compression used for DVD playback so you are making a second similar compression pass when you finish your edit and make the DVD. Film footage, especially super8, has a fair bit of grain and this constant changing picture is not very easy on compressors and will look better if you do your big DVD compression step from the least compressed source possible.

-Rob-

When transfering film to MiniDV, is the frame rate and or color of the origional film compromised at all?

Film is generally 24fps "progressive" which means the whole picture is displayed at the same time and not broken down to display as in NTSC or PAL tv systems. NTSC is 59.94 fields per second (2 fields make a frame) and pal is 50 fields per second. This is a analog compression technique and works by drawing half of the lines in a video picture "going down" and filling in the other half "going up" there were no LCD or Plasma, etc. displays when TV was invented and the up/down analogy is based on the electron gun sweeping across the phosper on a CRT.

Film scanning either uses a 3:2 pulldown or a transfer at 25fps to fit the natural film framerate into the way SD broadcast works. Despite the fact that DV is a digital format it has to work with the long established broadcast standards and recreates it's digital bitstream into a analog interlaced 720 pixel format (with 486 or 576 lines NTSC or PAL) this motion compensation and downres of the natural film picture and framerate is one component of "loss" inherent in the DV system.

16mm film is generally considered to be a 2K res format and even super8 is being scanned at 2K these days so many arguments can be hatched from the film res debate but 2K is 2048 x 1556 and DV is 720 x 480 so there is a significant loss of resolution, this is also why film transfered to SD can look so good because it is "supersampled" basically you are stuffing a 800lb gorilla in a 50lb box, google Nyquist for more info on this.

Film color is often represented at 16bit per channel precision (either in 16bit rgb or 10bit log) this is a representation of each color dye (red, green, blue) as a digital sample. Video works differently it makes a representation of the B+W image (the Y in YUV) and then uses two color difference signals (the U&V in YUV) to "hang" color on that framework. This is where the 4:4:4, 4:2:2, 4:1:1 numbers come from they represent how often a digital system samples each of the 3 pieces of the YUV component video signal. Full sampling is 4:4:4 or no information is thrown away. DV is 4:1:1 which means 3/4 of the color information is thrown away and instead of being sampled at 16bits per channel, or 10bits as in hi-end video, it is sampled at 8 bits. In order to make a initial bitstream which is ready to compress the "front end" of the DV system throws allot of information away.

The last compromise is the 5:1 compression which is applied to the incoming signal this compressor was designed a few years ago and there are more efficient compressors and the compressor has to be able to be stopped on an individual frame so as to facilitate editing, this is the big difference between Dv and DVD compression.

This is a simplified version of what's out there and the differences between DI style RGB representations of film and the video representations get much more complex. Dv looks good because it retains all of the sampling from the underlying B+W picture and tricks you by chucking much of the color, this is why DV looks much better in B+W than in color and also why it is a "clean" looking picture...Dv is much better than Hi8 but I feel not as good as BetaSP but it's cheap and universal and mostly easy to use.

Hope this helps.

-Rob-

Rob,

Have you seen any time-lapse footage shot with an Eyemo? I asked NCS if they had any feedback from users (Eyemos with their motor) or demo footage, but NCS didn't have any at the time.

Charlie

I bought a Eyemo (Spyder Turret in decent shape) and then I bought a bunch of parts including a newish "front" from an instrumentation camera and completely disassembled my eyemo, bead blasted the parts, re wrinkle finished the case (in black) cleaned and lubed the movement and installed the new single turret front on the camera.

I shot a bunch of footage with a eyemax 25mm f2.3 lens including a hand cranked sequence in a Soviet era Juliett submarine for a film I am working on and then set about to graft the Nikon mount on the camera.

I took the front off the camera again and brought it and a Nikon to C-mount to our C-n-C machine shop and explained to them what I wanted and the flange focal distance, etc and a week later I picked up a Nikon mount front machined to exact specs (this shop does aerospace components for things like the ISS) which I tested out and find to be fine and sharp, etc. the camera runs great and is smooth at all speeds.

I also had bought a set of shutters from a guy in LA a while back so I have a range of shutters made of tough plastic to run in the camera (11, 11+11, 22, 90, 180, etc.) very happy with the results so far.

NCS motors do have controlled motor ramping for the stepper motor they use so I imagine the intervalometer will be as steady as can be expected from a non pin registered movement as the camera is in great shape.

I'll post photos and a movie after I have shot one in a week or so. The eyemo/ncs rig is a bit more portable and inconspicuous than a Mitchell timelapse setup too....

-Rob-

And we, and other labs and video facilities, run into this all the time - all because people seem to think that all of this technology works flawlessly, and that they don't need to have any ability to deal with it when it doesn't.

Amen to that Mike, this kind of problem does seem to happen mostly with DV based formats or recordable DVD, etc. Not so much with beta or Dbeta. There seems to be such a strong belief in this inexpensive technology that any flaws inherent in it are almost offensive to the consumer and that is translated as a problem with the facility that recorded the tape and not a problem with the system itself.

-Rob-

Who needs 35 or complex HD gear anymore?? :ph34r:

Constant gardner was a Super16 / 35mm mix and looked great. I saw 2K northlight scans from this picture (raw) and got to play around with them on a Baselight4 super16 to 2K on an oversampled scanner looks really great if shot well. And I suppose the over complex electrolux cam has a place too....

-Rob-

I guess this thread has normalised to the "is film dying or dead?" groove quite quickly.

Film is all ground up bones sprinkled with silver (or seaweed from our eastern friends) so I guess film has always been dead, maybe that's why it's so hard to kill. Attack! of the blobulous strips of emulsion! world in peril! I have my first B-movie title! But seriously organic emulsion/processes fit in a sustainable business model and dino-goop falls short.

couldn't resist, sorry :blink:

-rob-

i think woodstock was shot with eclair cameras right?

There were definitely arri M's used as well you can see them in some of the shots with the giant 1200' 16mm mags. I wish I still had mine (I had a 1200' mag too) great camera.

-Rob-

Rob,

Did you get the animation motor for your eyemo yet? I think you were looking at the motor from NCS Products.

 

Charlie

I am picking it up next week, I just rounded my glass set for the eyemo out with 18mm and 28mm Nikkor lenses, I already have a 8mm Peleng and a 35-105 Nikkor. I am stoked to get the motor it can do extended exposures and is programmable with the ability to change exposure duration during a shoot, here come stars flying by!

NCS also makes a motor which does timelapse and sync filming (up to 48fps? I think.) seems to be nicely built and I am going to bring my eyemo over to NCS in Queens to Pickup/tryout.

Maybe I will eventually get a 28mm f1.4 nikkor too but not this round all 2.8 or 3.5 lenses right now.

-Rob-

I think there is the desire for a new age with the advent of digital technology but the reality is that you are working with light, not camera gear, if you want to Cinematographotize a moving picture. Unless there has been a new revolutionary development in light it is still the same age :D Ok you have to use cameras too...

I dig on film and work with it daily, in many capacities, but have used video allot too from Dv to F900, etc. If you have a Dv or HDV camera already I would add a 16mm windup to that kit and try out some B+W and Color reversal. See how film stocks react push the film and video around under similar conditions and get a feel.

The thing is to care for the image like it was your baby and part of that care is knowing how far you can push the format your working in. Future video cameras are going to be allot less like video cameras and more and more will mimic film shooting.

-Rob-

Hi,

 

My question is what input are you using on the MiniDV?

 

Stephen

We have a number of decks at cinelab, some of our DvCam decks are SDI and some are Component we also have a JVC 600 miniDv deck which is component in. JVC is the only company which makes a "pro" miniDv deck with component in and ext timecode in, etc. I think that it is important to note that DV, Dvcam, Dvcpro25 all have the exact same picture quality because they use the same compressor. Practically there is very little difference between a SDI in and a SDI to component converter which takes place 6" from the deck. MiniDv is a somewhat limited format but more of the resultant image quality lies with the telecine gear being used, if the telecine is in good tune and modern and making great pictures it will be able to stuff more of that good picture into the little minidv package.

-Rob-

Hi Rob, even EXR and Vision "1" I found it's more like 2/3 stop based on printer lights.

 

-Sam

That was definitely what I was feeling and pushing more with these stocks seem to have diminishing returns. I strongly agree that not pushing and getting the fastest glass is the way to go. We shot a setup in a abandoned fire truck in Brooklyn with just a zippo lighter near an actors face,zeiss 25mm @1.3t with 500t, came out great. City-scapes at night with superspeeds and 500ei stock and I am always surprised, pleasantly, with how much exposes.

-rob-

that's an excellent idea and one that will work for most of the shots. But I do have a couple of shots that involve an actors hand in extreme foreground with the buildings in extreme background. the hands will move a little so undercranking won't work there. I have managed to get a Zeiss 135MM T2.1 which will help. So maybe I'm back to the idea of pushing one stop...

Maybe John from Kodak can chime in here but I have found that pushing xx18 seems not to yield a full stop increase maybe it has something to do with the newer grain structure with this stock.....I would run a test with your lab first.

-Rob-

I've never metered the lights or buildings/walls they illuminate in NY, but having also shot some night stuff with available street lights here in SF, I barely achieved correct exposure wide open at T.2.

 

Hopefully, you'll be able to push it and then degrain in post to really bring up that detail without the distracting noise that I usually see in 7218.

I have been shooting an indie feature ('The Illustrator") mostly in NYC and Trenton/Princeton Nj we have done some extensive available light shooting outdoors at night in NYC. I have been primarily shooting the picture with my LTR54 and I have a set of Zeiss superspeeds for it. I am constantly amazed by the newer 500t stocks both fuji eterna and kodak xx18 when it comes to exposing at night in the city. Wide open superspeed primes are a must though a t2.5 zoom is really going to hurt you for getting the exposure, certainly undercranking is an option I am very fond of the 6fps setting on the aaton.

-Rob-

The director would like to desaturate the colors completely leaving a B/W image but he wants lo leave the reds on. This is called Red Hood, and it?s the fairy tale story used as a canvas for this project. Since there won't be really a budget for a DI, I was hoping to get as close as possible to this idea in a TK grade,

A good colorist with a DaVinci 2K+ or Pogle platinum should be able to isolate the color you want and desaturate the rest without having to resort to tracking. Even if they do you can draw a shape in the CC and do an inside-outside correction he may need to setup a garbage matte or similar but the newer Colorist tools will certainly allow for this and are quite commonly used for commercial (spots) finishing.

-Rob-

Buy an external hard-drive and have it telecine'd at 4:4:4 1080i HD.

 

Then, for archival purposes, you can back up those files on DVD's afterwards.

Recordable DVD's are really only reliable for a short period of time, 5-10 years or so. I have a pdf of an article from "restaurator" an archivist's publication in which a very methodical test of a wide range of optical media was tested and how well the media survived under different conditions. Unfortunately about the best result was 10 years without loss of data and the worst result was only a few months. The test was made with a wide range of conditions from ideal to worst.

We are currently in the middle of an archival project for a library which entails backing up or duplication all of the media assets of a US senator. Everything from 16 & 35 to Beta 3/4" Quad, vhs 1" etc. Much of the magnetic tape has had issues with mold and although the base is polyester and the material is ferrous the mold finds the organic binder (glue) to be tasty and when the mold has eaten through far enough the control tracks are lost or the entire helical scan is lost and there is no recovery of the material. That said tape does last significantly longer and better than optical.

Your original negatives will outlast all of the digital formats available today by a very wide margin and if they are B+W an order of magntude or 3.

-Rob-

MiniDV = evil.

Just to clarify though, MiniDV. DvcPro, and DvCam all have exactly the same picture quality, i..e. 411 5;1 compressed. The "pro" formats DvcPro and Dvcam are just more robust versions of the MiniDv format, i.e. the tape runs faster to minimize dropout, they handle timecode better, etc.

DvcPro50, etc are different formats and are less common and more expensive.

And yes MiniDv does suck in many ways.

-Rob-

I've also noticed that spectra does a lot of sharpening to their image in the transfer, which can give the illusion of shooting a higher resolution format.

I've noticed that Cinelab does a good job reducing sparkle/speckle, but as a result their transfer is much softer. It does look very 'slick' but does not have the apparent resolution that spectra has.

 

Every transfer house will have their own look because the technology varies dramatically for S8 transfers from lab to lab.

You can set the aperture corrector on the Digi4 framestore in a rank to a higher setting which will increase the apparent sharpness of the image Spectra also has a V3 8mm gate which is probably the nicest gate ever made for 8mm film and costs in the 50K range. I have not seen any film from them but I would imagine that it looks great and is naturally sharp.

I liked what I saw from FSFT too even though I generally do not like the Shadow based on my experience with 16 and 35 on it. I have always thought the shadow made a to videoish and over sharpened image, compared to the Spirit or DSX and Millenium machines I have used (the Millenium being my favorite) but it seems to work well for super8. We processed a 200+ roll color neg 8mm job last year and the client put the film on the Spirit at technicolor in NY and did a D5 transfer which looked really great, the spirit is a true 2K res machine (although only 422 color at the imager) while the Shadow is resolution truncated (1440 422 at the imager) but you get what you pay for at 1800/hr on the spirit.

Justin our film has low speckle count because out processing is really clean :D I am constantly working on improving our gate and trying to squeeze the last ounce of performance out of our Rank I made some changes recently which give a much sharper image and have a whole next generation gate setup in the works at our machine shop. I feel we will be as sharp as any other rank in a little bit. I do not like noise reducers and/or using aperture correcting to sharpen the image and will just be trying to give a natural picture now and in the future.

Just a note about DigiBeta In my opinion the deck is really too much for what you are buying a used DigiBeta deck is $30k a Uncompressed disk transfer is $2K (for a G5, Card and Disk array) the uncompressed disk transfer is better than digibeta in image quality. Any facility that has a "modern" telecine can record to Digibeta through SDI. We have transfered material to Digi in the past (mostly MV work that ran on MTV in Europe, PAL) I looked at the rental deck and could not find where the thing was worth as much as a porsche the rental was $400.00 there are something like 40 tape formats out there now keeping up with all of them can put a small facility like any of us in a bad way.....

-Rob-

That sure is a bear! I'd definitely try to switch the lens mount because I've never been too impressed with any color work shot with an Eyemo mount lens.

The variable shutter is a first and I've been into Eyemos for about 10 years!

I think that many of the scientific variants of the eyemo, including instrumentation cameras based on the eyemo movement, had variable shutters. I have a "Flight Inst. Co." camera which I am planning to turn into a crash cam which has a eyemo movement and front coupled to a AC or DC internal motor. The camera is very square with multiple mounting points and in the manual there is extensive notes on the variable shutter option. Unfortunately mine is sans variable shutter.

-Rob-

I intend to create a bleach bypass look in transfer. Could you up the contrast of the stock and get good results?

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

I shot my first paying 35mm job on 5277, I think I still have a few 400' rolls in the fridge. I chose the stock for it's lo-con soft and specific color pallate. You could work the image over in Telecine to give it a more contrasty look (Sink the blacks play with gamma, etc.) but you are not starting out with the "best" raw material for that look. Did you consider having the lab do a Bleach-Bypass when you process?

-Rob-

Is it possilbe to shoot candle lit scenes of that quality with more normal lenses? Would this be easier with a digital camera?

 

Mike

With Superspeeds and 500ei stock shooting by candlelight works today, the stocks available when barry Lindon was shot were considerably slower. Imagine new stocks with the 0.7t stop lenses today, I believe the Mitchells and Zeiss 0.7 lens(s) kubrick used are available to rent in London. And I think it would be easier and look far better on emulsion than digitronic.

-Rob-

I will probably have to remove the TC bundle if I can't get it to properly fire up as we can't support it and it may fry the rest of the electronics like the old light meters used to do. We'll see.

But you are still going to install the atomic power source, the 400fps motor and the throwing stars, right?

Oh OH and laser beams! I need laser beams!

-Rob-

I've recently started working with Futureshorts www.futureshorts.com which puts on monthly shorts festivals in Europe. They are setting up a branch in NYC and we already had one screening which sadly had to be projected from DVD. There were some problems in the PAL transfer and the dvd froze on the first film.

 

I'd like to try to get them to do all of their NYC screenings in Beta, but what is the best process for this? Should I just get uncompressed quicktime files from them to go straight to beta? Will I have to get the files converted from PAL to NTSC?

 

Any advice would be great!

I think the best route might be to find a facility in NY which has a Teranex standards converter and have a Digibeta PAL to Digibeta NTSC conversion done on the teranex this is a all SDI route and real time.

I would think most post shops in NYC that have telecine will have a teranex.

I am also assuming your original is DigiBeta PAL.

-Rob-

Apparently Mac Pros allow RAID to be set-up on their internal Sata II Hard Drives.

 

Would this be just as good or better than getting a a Lacie Firewire 800?

 

I am going to have a Mac Pro with 1.5 TB. I can alot 1TB for RAID. That should be able to handle the Uncompressed Video right? And then I would not have to spend additional money on the Lacie Set-Up.

 

Thanks again in advance, you are really helping me out here.

 

Luke

Absolutely the internal sata array will be higher performance than FW800 so all you need is a card to work with Digibeta.

-Rob-

Thanks again. This stuff is more affordable than I thought.

 

Luke

A SDi only Blackmagic card is only $300.00 too..

-Rob-