Robert Houllahan

I sent my Eyemo and Revolution intervalometer out with a friend (a popular grip in town) to a remote fire tower in Wisconsin where he's working this week, and although he's loaded it many times before, this time he's having a problem getting the upper feed sprocket to engage the film. He's tried it with some old neg I had and despite having it properly threaded and getting the cover to fit (indicating that the pressure plate release has been re-engaged properly) the film stops moving after 2 frames have fed, and the upper loop is lost. The upper sprocket is turning, he says, but from what he can see, the perfs are not engaged onto the sprocket. When the pressure plate release is engaged, he says that both sprockets seem to move the same distance to get into place for operation. it's all very confusing... when I examine a second Eyemo here, it seems impossible that he is having this problem.

 

Anyone ever experience anything like this? I wish I could transport myself to Northern Wisconsin for a few minutes to look at it for myself.

Sounds to me like the pressure plate slide is not fully engaged and possibly there is something (a rogue perf or two?) stuck in the way keeping the mechanism from sliding all the way forward. The door will not go on unless the slide is all the way forwards as it has a cam on it which engages a tapered piece on the far end of the slide mechanism (towards where the 400' mag goes) did he check and make sure the framerate selector is all the way to 48fps? and if he has a hand crank can he freely hand crank the camera?

Best guess is that if the door will not go on the slide is not all the way engaged.

-Rob-

I can't speak for the 50, but one of the first things I bought were 2 O'connor 100s one of which came from Panavision. This heads are simply the best. Make sure there are no leaks in the one you're looking at, if so the price drops dramatically because the O'connors are expensive to re-build. B)

The 50 and 100 are good basic heads with the ability to smoothly carry a heavier camera and are pretty bullet proof. O'Connor does have replacement parts and they can be rebuilt. I have a 50D with Peter Lisand sticks I use with my Aaton when I do not have a rental. If you have not ever used a newer head like a 2575 etc then you don't know what you are missing, if you have the older heads are still ok too.

-rob-

For those who would need to convert 18 Frames / Second Film onto Telecine Video, a 3:3:3:2:3:3:3:2:3 Pulldown will fulfil 25 f/s Video, and a 3:3:4 Pulldown will fill 30 f/s Video.

As I posted in the Super8 thread any modern telecine (not chain :( ) can run the film at a desired crystal locked framerate and fit that framerate onto the output video format. For example a film run framerate of 13.987 fps can run to 25i, 30i, 24p and there will be no interlace issues and no jitter just clean images at the SDI output of the telecine/color corrector.

This process is automatic and happens in the framestore of the telecine this part is a computer essentially which builds the frame of video from the CRT/Photocells in flying spot or the CCD array in a CCD machine. The framestore is locked to a sync generator (PAL, NTSC, Tri-Level HD) and takes a frame pulse from the Digital Servo so it "knows" the desired output framerate and the rate at which pictures are being scanned from the imaging head in the telecine.

-Rob "knows too much about telecines" Houllahan-

Use their price quote on their website. For 1,200' of 16mm it is more like .10 frame. Maybe .02 frame if you scan 1,000,00 feet. :angry: :angry:

Whoops, last time we did something with them was a sizable 35mm job and the scan was something like $0.02/frame.

Sorry.

Try National in Boston or Flying spot in Seattle both have Thompson Shadow telecines and both go to hard disk for a reasonable price.

www.nationalboston.com

www.fsft.com

-Rob-

Rob

What's the conversion rate exactly? 20 fps translates to 30 easily: every third frame is made up of a field of the two adjacent frames. When transferring 24fps to video it occurs every 4th frame. what is the relationship between the film frames and video frames if the film runs at 18 fps.

Rick

I just looked at the metaspeed control panel on my Rank #1 and it has 17.946 fps (18 -0.1% ?) amongst others I have punched in like 2fps and 12fps. I have a client in NYC who had some films shot at 5 fps and we transfered them to 29.97 video at 5fps.

Contrary to what may be popular belief there is no cadence adjustment on any telecine I know of and I have experience with all types of Flying spot and Ccd machines. The framestore in the telecine accepts the framerate from the digital servo and fits the framerate selected to the desired output framerate.

I will have to ask one of the engineers I know if there is a better explanation of how the framestore on various Telecine systems handle off framerate cadence, like 5fps or 18fps. I generally figure that for the $600k to $2M that a new telecine costs some smart folks figured this out right,

The 5fps (4.993 fps) transfer looks great, no stuttering or interlace issues just clean video.

-Rob-

with 18 vs 24 because 18fps is transferred to video at 20 fps so there is a speed change.

Any Rank or Thompson telecine with a digital servo (metaspeed, etc.) can transfer 18fps at 18fps to 29.97 or 25 frame SD video.

Super8 rocks, enjoy.

-Rob-

I would recommend pixelharvest.com in LA they will give you a real pin-registered 2K scan with a IR pass on disk for $0.02 per frame or so. Skip video all together and go straight to data. Figure around $350 for the scan, we have sent them 35mm we processed for a NY client but they do 16mm as well.

-Rob-

Today, the most cost effective way to "blow up" Super-8 negative would be to do a HD digital transfer, and then a 35mm "film out" onto intermediate film to make the 35mm printing negative. Some labs may still offer Super-8 optical blow ups, but not many.

We processed a large run of super8 color negative late last year, around 200 rolls, that went on a Spirit in NY to D-5 I heard that they were very happy. There was also that picture in europe done to 2k on the spirit.

Still there is something about an optical print, Rob Todd at Emerson had a bunch of K40 he optically blew up to 16 on a JK and we processed and printed it for him and I thought it was special looking.

-Rob-

rob,

 

Steve over at National told me that they can handle 2 perf, or so says the manual.

I knew the servos, etc. in any newer TK (thompson, cintel) would be able to do this, the rest is masking/sizing for the video format. National has the same Keylink that we do and it needs to be upgraded for 2-perf according to Carter at Trading Post the North American dealer. JP at aaton would want his keycode reader to read properly for all of his camera's.

I saw a very nice Kinor modified for 2-perf by Aranda film on ebay a few months back looked really nice around $20k was the asking. There have been some cheap-ish Moviecam's on there recently as well, seems like another good candidate.

I want to substitute 2-perf for my Aaton on the next picture I shoot. Same mag run times (ish) 35mil quality and no real protection for video I love it.

-Rob-

Hi,

 

A bad idea as the film may well be unsteady when transfered this way.

 

Stephen

I had a similar discussion about this on the Tig and this is certainly a questionable area in the idea of a 2 at a time scan even on a pin registered scanner like a Northlight or Arri. I guess tests would have to be done.

-Rob-

Arri just announced the availability of 2-perf movements this year, and the Aaton Penelope has yet to be released, and Multivision 235 is in Australia... so basically the 2-perf rental market in Los Angeles is still dead more or less. But I have hopes that it will soon be an option.

I am interested in supporting this format, I talked to the Aaton rep in Canada who is in charge of the Keylink product about upgrading our 2 systems to read 2-perf keycode properly supposedly it is a software upgrade for most versions of the keylink system.

For dailies I believe the Metaspeed servo on a Cintel system can be programmed to properly transport 2 perf for edit dailies. I think Spirit and Shadow TK's can run 2 perf as again it is a program in the digital servo.

I do not know entirely about finish scanning but it has been suggested that you would do a 4perf scan to 4K on something like a Northlight and split the frames in post, this effectively doubles scan speed.....

-Rob-

I think the average is going to be from $250/min to about $450/min on real Cine recorders and this depends on how long a job it is (running time) and as Dominic said this will depend on the source material.

 

We have been shooting 30 sec spots to both 1.85 and 2.35 with one print each for around $1k on a Solitaire Cine3 and I have a few 20min jobs coming up. I would not want to shoot a long form show on a slow recorder like this but image quality is good.

 

I would think that facilities in LA would sell off the downtime on a arri or Celco recorder more reasonably and you might get a deal if you call around.

 

-Rob-

I was also going to say that I get a call from time to time from 16mm filmmakers asking for video to 16 and I generally tell people to shoot a LCD monitor with a camera, many titles are done this way. There are several companies out there starting to make panel based film recorders, Kinetta for example.

-Rob-

the wet gate system does use a fluid to fill in the scratches. im thinking its one of those very environmentaly unfriendly kinda liquids too, i dont remember what it is but more information can be gathered by googling.

 

as for home telecine of negative, its a lot more complicated than it seems. its not as simple as using a reverse function in software or a camera. ive been looking into it for a bit now. theres a website out there that shows you how to convert a cheap eumig super8 projector into a single frame grabbing telecine machine. its really quite simple. the problem is the images wont be that steady compared to doing it on pro telecine equipment. you need a pin registered system for that.

The fluid is Perchlorethylene, Mmmm tasty. Used to be Tri-Chlor but that is now banned....

A wet gate will only really fill scratch problems on the film base, if there is an emulsion scratch it will still show up. Color negative film is allot softer than reversal films, running it in a Projection based system will invariably scratch it. That said color negative super8 when shot with a properly running camera and processed with attention to detail can be very clean and scratch free.

Modern Telecine systems are generally not pin registered (Cintel "rank" flying spot and Thompson Spirit and Shadow) they do have very complicated and high precision capstan drive mechanisms which are generally rock steady down to 0.01 fps and are gentle on the film they are transporting.

You could get good results with a slide scanner which had been modified for continuous film but you would be waiting a VERY VERY long time to scan a 50' Super8 cartridge.

-Rob-

Reverse telecine is indeed transferring electronic images onto film.

 

It is invariably more expensive than telecine transfers. But you need to be specific as there are differnet processes, depending on whether you are transferring from video (SD or HD) to film, or from data to film: and whether it's a laser recorder, a CRT recorder, or an older machine like a kinescope: or simply a film camera pointed at a monitor.

I think the average is going to be from $250/min to about $450/min on real Cine recorders and this depends on how long a job it is (running time) and as Dominic said this will depend on the source material.

We have been shooting 30 sec spots to both 1.85 and 2.35 with one print each for around $1k on a Solitaire Cine3 and I have a few 20min jobs coming up. I would not want to shoot a long form show on a slow recorder like this but image quality is good.

I would think that facilities in LA would sell off the downtime on a arri or Celco recorder more reasonably and you might get a deal if you call around.

-Rob-

It was suggested to me that if I rephotograph my exposed, processed Super-8 color negative film onto interpositive stock (using an optical printer), I could have a print made of the film. Is this is accurate?

You could possibly do this, however I would suggest going to Andec film in Germany and having them do a Super8 wet gate contact print and then optically blowing up (the super8 positive) to 16mm or 35mm InterNegative stock to make the prints. I think you may have a tough time setting the lights on the color negative to IP and there will be a higher chance of damaging the original.

I think it's andecfilm.de as far as I know they are the only people who do Super8 contact printing, but maybe Interformat in Ca. does it as well

-Rob-

I'm shooting a 16mm silent B&W short film and we're finishing up next weekend. I was wondering if there was a lab that would develop my film, and telecine the footage onto miniDv for a discounted price. We're sending about 4 rolls of 100 foot Trix 160speed film and 2 rolls of 100 foot plusX 100 speed film, making 600 feet total. I've never used a telecine lab before because we have a telecine at school, but to be honest it looks pretty terrible, and I want a good digital copy of this most recent film. Student discounts appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

Give us a call

www.cinelab.com

-Rob-

Hi

Our color lab head Bob Hume and I were talking about 100' super8 cartridges just yesterday. Bob said that Kodak used to make 100' loads that were in the same 50' cartridge. They managed this by putting the film on estar base. Bob said that they did not really work well because the thinner base routinely jammed in the cartridge making it more like a 30' roll than 100' maybe 50' is alright after all.

-Rob-

I generally try to get our customers shooting Super16 to do an anamorphic video transfer. If you edit in 16:9 anamorphic and build a DVD at the end the set top player will auto letterbox for 4:3 sets and play 16:9 for newer widescreen sets. Seems like a good all around way to go as many people have plasma's or lcd's now.

-Rob-

I thought it was Scorsese's best since Goodfella's maybe I am biased because I am from Providence where "they just will not stop having the maafia" as Jack said.

I did feel that I could see the DI, probably scanned on a Spirit rather than a Northlight or Arri.. looked past it thought the performances were pretty funny, esp. if you have spent some time in Boston.

my $0.02

-Rob-

Hey,

 

I'm completely new to this forum, so forgive any naivety.

 

I'm shooting my classmate's freshman film, he's purchased all Fuji stocks, Eterna 250D, Eterna 250T, Reala 500D. He just asked me how we would go about shooting the moon. I don't have a spot meter, and we can't get one. I'm sure there's no way an incident reading will help, so my question is: Is there a rule of thumb when trying to properly expose for the moon? Do you just open all the way up? It's a short shot and he doesn't mind bracketing it so maybe it won't be a problem at all. I'm thinking of shooting it at 2, 2.8., 4, and maybe 5.6.

 

Does anyone have any suggestions about which stock I maybe should use of the ones I mentioned, any comments are useful.

 

Thanks

 

- Matt

I just did this and saw it on the DSX at Mi in NYC on Monday, I shot Fuji 250D with a ND 2.0 (5 stops) and at a T8.0 looked great. Camera was my Aaton LTR54 with a Zeiss 12-120.

-Rob-

As a camera/shooting format, beta-SP cameras, to my eye, still tend to outperform DV cameras, but this is mostly due to the difference in camera design (pro vs. consumer, 2/3" CCD vs. 1/3" CCD, etc.)

 

The main problem with analog tape formats, as everyone knows, is generational loss, which probably can be mitigated by never going more than one generation down from beta-SP in the chain.

 

Anyway, from a purely practical what-you-see-with-your-eyes level, I don't think there is a definite overall quality difference between DV25 and beta-SP, it's sort of a toss-up, but it really depends on the post chain planned. If you can avoid either DV25 or beta-SP, you're probably better off anyway.

What Dave said, period :D ....I think Beta has a bit nicer color from a Telecine session, but it's a tossup.

I do know a few well respected ENG shooters with pretty extensive (early career) film experience and both of these guys work in NYC for hi-end news, etc. One's got a D600 and a Dsr-570 and the other has a D-35 with Beta and DvCam backs, the BetaSP is what's called for 90% of the time and esp. for national broadcast on air personalities on major news networks. Maybe that's what the producers are used to or maybe there's a possibly real perception that the beta is nicer on the "talent" I don't know more but that's what I have heard....

-Rob-

The liquid you mention isn't water (that WOULD make neg and stock stick, fatally!). It's used in very fancy printers, the liquid is usually tetrachlorethylene (local environmental requirements are putting pressure on this)

Is tri-chlor still legal in Australia? it has been outlawed in the US for 5 years? I think. We run Per-chlor in our wet gate, as I assume most other US labs do.

-Rob-

Hi I´m working in a "no budget" projet.

the 16mm film will be telecined to miniDV or Betacm SP. i can handle two formats, but which you prefer? miniDV or BTC SP?

 

thanks in advance

I would go for the Beta.

-Rob-

I am shooting a film on regular 16mm in a few months and I am trying to find the best transfer house to use. I live in Vermont and there are no film labs in the state. I figured New York would be my best bet to check, but I also have been looking in Boston.

 

Pretty much I want to find a place that will process and transfer my film to HD hard drive files. I am still a little confused between telecine and di, but I am looking for the cheapest method possible, not so cheap it doesn't look good though. Eventually we are planning on entering the film in a few festivals so I want it to be nice enough quality to be projected on a big screen.

 

Any suggestions on labs would be great.

We are the closest lab to you, national in boston will do hi-def transfers to HD you could process with us and we can courier the film to boston. Keep in mind that Std16 fits funny in the HD frame. Another alternative is to do 2k scans there is a guy in LA we have been doing a few jobs through while I look at scanners the issue with a 2K scan is that it then needs to be graded.

Feel free to call if interested.

-Rob-

No laughing please, but my time lapse Eyemo is currently run by a small heavy duty windscreen wiper motor, powered by 12v gel cell supply and controlled with a basic intervalometer.To make it go backwards I simply reverse the battery polarity!

This ,of course, seems perfectly proper for an Eyemo I assume you also use the Eyemo for hammering nails on occasion and as a proper device to open stubborn adult beverages? And watch out if a burglar breaks an entering on your premises the old eyemo will show it's ww2 heritage :D

Pics of the eyemo with NCS motor when I pick it up.....

-Rob-