Jack Jin

Hi guys, I'm trying to see how real cineon log scans from modern scanners grade, I want to see if they match the negative cineon emulation that I'm using, so if anybody can provide a completely ungraded prores video or dpx or tiff stills of the film scan off of a spirit or scanity or lasergraphics scanner it would be much appreciated, especially if there are of tests with different exposures and medium shots of faces. thank you very much.

18 hours ago, Robert Houllahan said:

Here is the "latest /greatest" sensor that companies are using in film scanners:

https://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products/common/pdf/IMX342LLA_LQA_Flyer.pdf

6.5K 12-bit Global Shutter.

A machine vision camera and high speed frame grabber with this sensor will run about $7.5k-$8K

You cannot use a rolling shutter sensor for continuous motion film scanners like Xena ScanStation etc. it has to be Global.

For intermittent scanning (Step Frame-scan-StepFrame etc.) you can use a rolling shutter.

Here is a 14K sensor:

https://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products/common/pdf/IMX411ALR_AQR_Flyer.pdf

Figure $16-20kK for that camera.

How much stops of dr does these sensors realistically have? Especially when compared to the DFT 4k and sdc2000. I know a lot of them can do multi pass hdr but I'm curious how these sensors stack up to the dft and sdc without the helpings of hdr. And how is the resolution from these bayer sensors compared to true rgb ccd sensors of the scanity and dft 4k?

I think Rank Cintel was a very popular telecine company in the standard definition days before Spirit and it's SDC series of film scanners took over. And blackmagic bought them and developed the blackmagic cintel scanner.

10 minutes ago, Uli Meyer said:

I don't know much about Cintel scanners but the thousand plus photos I've had processed and scanned at Silbersalz never had any of those issues. When they started off there were teething problems with their film cartridges (light leaks) but those are long gone.

 

Yeah Unless you really really messed up the exposure (4+ stops), it's not noticeable, since kodak vision 3 negatives aren't very dense. But the cintel scanners still doesn't have the best image quality due to the 4k cmos sensor, but it's not bad either.

40 minutes ago, Heikki Repo said:

Yes, just right above your message Jack Jin mentioned that Silbersalz scanner has FPN issues. So if there was some, I'd have wanted to see an unscaled - perhaps cropped - part of the frame, how it looks out of the scanner. Sorry for the confusion!

Oh the FPN issue only comes up in super dense or overexposed negatives and highlights, it's not a big issue if you shoot and expose relatively correctly. But this issue is much more prevalent in reversal film, since they are extremely dense, thus the shadows can be very dark, exposing the dynamic range weakness of the cintel scanner. Silbersalz is decent for what they are offering, the cintel machine isn't that bad, as I said, still miles ahead of any scanners in any photolabs, just not as good as other higher end cinema film scanners like the scanity or the lasergraphic and Xena 6.5k machines.

Silbersalz does this as an entire service, they ship out repackaged vision 3 stocks, and you return them to their lab, so they can process it in ECN-2, and then scan it on their cintel machine, and because the film is going through their horizontally, the 4k sensor gives out a 21 megapixel scan. I really do wish if there are other labs with higher end scanners that does this though, since the cintel doesn't have a great sensor with quite a lot of FPN. So Image quality is not great, but it's still miles ahead of any standard photo film scanner like the noritsu or fuji premeire or kodak pakon. And funnily enough I was just wondering about the same thing browsing through cinelab's webiste just a few days ago. @Robert Houllahan If theoretically after the pandemic,  you guys have enough work force to reopen the stills processing service, would it be charged as vista vision or 35mm in terms of costs per feet? I would looove sending some decent amount of rolls to be proccessed and scanned on the xena 6.5k machine, Can't imagine how good the result will be, especially grading them in cineon log in davinci, that would be my dream in terms of film scanning.

This is only the case for prores, but for braw there is no 4k option yet, only 5.7k and 2.8k for slow mo. and even if there is a 4k option it will be cropped 1.5x for 1:1 pixel readout on top of the 1.55x crop of the apsc sensor. Because braw can't supersample information out of a cmos bayer sensor.

Actually Mainland China back then also had quite a lot of western gear in their arsenal, arriflexes and western lenses. I'm sure that this lens was used on something, but from what I heard from the older peeps, even before the reform they were mostly using either western or a bit of russian cameras or lenses. I mean the Chinese government would rather show off the ingenuity and the manufacturing prowess of the chinese people even on limited resources, like their hongchi brand of cars and their nuclear program that were made way back in the 50-60s era. So the whole thing about purposefully hiding doesn't make sense. But this is a cool looking lens nonetheless. 

1 hour ago, David Mullen ASC said:

No, the Genesis did not pixel bin, it was the same sensor as the F35, approx. 2K per color, 6K total, so it could simply read out each color stripe and create 1920 x 1080 per color, no demosaicing.  There weren't extra pixels to bin from anyway, there were just enough pixels for each color in HD plus some unrecorded lookaround I think (that part I don't remember.)

I guess you could consider that to create red, for example, you extracted every third stripe from the sensor, maybe you'd call that "binning" but it's not the definition normally used.

It's the nature of the color stripe design that color moire is sort of inevitable unless you really want to soften a lot of fine detail to get rid of it.

Oh I see, I saw the wiki for the genesis that said it cutted the vertical resolution by half through binning ? 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_(camera)  So I presume that this moire issue is the reason why so many manufactures decided to use a 3ccd design instead? Or is it to just maintain compatibility with the b4 lenses? 

On 7/7/2018 at 1:51 PM, David Mullen ASC said:

Sure, it’s possible, if not probable, that Sony refined the OLPF after the two years or so that the Genesis had the market to themselves. But I think the physical separation between a color stripe and the next time it appears in a row would make color moire almost inevitable. I only did a few things on the F35 compared to the hundreds of hours I did on the Genesis but I don’t recall much difference in the image.

Hi, sorry for replying to such an old thread, but isn't the genesis pixel binning the 5k sensor, and the f35 is doing a full sensor readout? Thus the moire could just have been caused by the pixel binning of the genesis.

I think Gaussian blur plug in is what a lot of people use for OLPF in Davinci.