A DP's Perspective of Red

[Daniel Gourley]

You Wanted to hear of a user's perspective who has qualifications:

 

Paul E. McCarthy IMDB LINK & IMDB DP LINK

 

We hosed it down with a couple of REDs this weekend. At Dusk Saturday Mark, Aldey and Pliny of Offhollywoodstudios arrived at my apt in Brooklyn Heights with camera's 0006 and 0007 and it was on.

First thing we did was throw one of them on steadicam(which was no problem) and shoot some magic hour on the promenade. It was the perfect test. The sun coming down the barrel as it set behind the back lit buildings. Rich Contrast everywhere in everything. We took a couple of passes around a sculpture and shot an impromptu iphone commercial with Mike Curtis' (HDforIndies)and his iphone while he was blogging on it. That guy is a crazy blogger. The camera floated around beautifully on the rig (Alec Jarnigin operating) The images were startling. RED held the sky and clouds like slide film.

Next we humped the cameras to my roofdeck where we shot New York Harbor at sunset. Pliny with beer in hand was dumping cards like he has been doing it his entire life. Mark was popping cards and I was operating. The images were startling. What I saw on REDalert looked like a perfectly exposed super thick negative that you know you can take anywhere you want in timing. I felt like I was about to start a 35mm telecine session. Tons of resolution, latitude, nothing clipping, nothing muddy. It looked nothing like video.

The Camera is built beautifully. This thing is tough. If you dropped it on your foot I would worry about your foot before I would worry about the camera. Its like the love child of an Audi S4 and a M16. There is no cheesy ENG plastic on this thing. The Cage is genius. Steel with plenty of places to to rig to and to grab... and I was grabbing the thing.

Day 2. Offhollywood, and my team rolled out to the jersey shore to Driver's East Stunt Driving School where I shot from Owen Holland's (owner of Action Camera Car)camera car and crane an amazing team of Stunt Car drivers hucking there cars into skids, 180s, slaloms, drifts you name it. These guys make Jason Bourne look like he drives like your grandma. I was spinning on the crane operating the camera with cage a lot it was great to have those points to hold onto as Owen and I chased these mad men (Roy Farful and Mike Burke) around.

The cameras worked flawlessly in the hot sun. Batteries performed great, 8g cards provide plenty of shooting time and the turn around is 8mins max. I didn't wait for a thing all day. Mark, Aldey and Pliny really delivered. They know this camera and its workflow inside and out.

It was a great opportunity for me. Thanks to Offhollywoodstudios, Action Camera Car and Driver's East for everything I look forward to the next one and the one after that.

Paul E. McCarthy DP

Edited September 5, 2007 by Daniel Gourley

[Adamo P Cultraro]

Yeah! great report!!!!!

[Brian Dzyak]

I'd like to know how the sent the image to the Steadicam. Via downconverter or direct to an HD monitor.

 

I also want to know specifically about the storage card shooting time and turnaround time.

[Häakon]

I'd like to know how the sent the image to the Steadicam. Via downconverter or direct to an HD monitor.

 

I also want to know specifically about the storage card shooting time and turnaround time.

It was an AJA downconverter:

 

http://picasaweb.google.com/aftongrant/RED...970437594795634

 

The 8GB compact flash card they used holds about 4 mins of 4K REDCODE RAW, and copies to a computer via a standard CF card reader. The time this takes depends on the speed of your reader and the interface it uses.

 

Camera startup time is a whopping 90 seconds at the moment. They hope to "severely reduce this" by firmware updates in the future.

[Dan Goulder]

Camera startup time is a whopping 90 seconds at the moment.

When exactly was this figure made public?

[Häakon]

When exactly was this figure made public?

Exactly on September 4th, 2007 at 10:51pm PST.

 

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.ph...78513#post78513

Edited September 6, 2007 by Häakon

[Guest Rainer Fritz]

Is there some footage online?? would be great to see it !!!

 

thx

[John Sprung]

Camera startup time is a whopping 90 seconds at the moment. They hope to "severely reduce this" by firmware updates in the future.

Probably more of a concern for the amateur market than pros. After all, how long does it take to build a Panaflex? Or to re-load?

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[Brian Dzyak]

Or to re-load?

-- J.S.

 

I've seen it done in 9 seconds. :)

[Brad Grimmett]

I've seen it done in 9 seconds. :)

To be fair, you're talking about putting the mag on the camera and threading it, not taking a mag off, trading it for a fresh mag, and then threading it. It would take a superhero to do all that in 9 seconds. It is still faster than 90 seconds though.

[Häakon]

Probably more of a concern for the amateur market than pros. After all, how long does it take to build a Panaflex? Or to re-load?

-- J.S.

Let's please curb the elitist attitude a bit and remember that just because someone is not shooting film it doesn't make them an "amateur." Scads of dramatic television shows (and let's be honest, even enough feature films now to warrant a mention) are being shot digitally. RED is a digital camera, not a film camera. How long does it take to replace the tape in an F-900 and resume shooting? I don't think you will last too long if it takes you 90 seconds.

[Max Jacoby]

Let's please curb the elitist attitude a bit and remember that just because someone is not shooting film it doesn't make them an "amateur."

I think you're being a bit too touchy there.

 

I am sure John merely used the film camera as an example of professional gear and did certainly not mean to suggest that digital cameras are not professional.

[Brian Dzyak]

Let's please curb the elitist attitude a bit and remember that just because someone is not shooting film it doesn't make them an "amateur." Scads of dramatic television shows (and let's be honest, even enough feature films now to warrant a mention) are being shot digitally. RED is a digital camera, not a film camera. How long does it take to replace the tape in an F-900 and resume shooting? I don't think you will last too long if it takes you 90 seconds.

 

More than that, my 10/hr HD rate shooting non-narrative is higher than any of the film ACs get (usually) working a normal 14 hour day. Maybe one day I'll get to go "pro." :) ... not that I'd mind at all raking in the $8 grand or more a week that some DPs make shooting episodics and features.

 

Back to the sub-topic, stopping tape, hitting eject, pulling the tape, putting a new one in, closing the door, resetting TC and rolling 30 seconds of bars and tone probably takes close to 90 seconds. Over 60 anyway. Just for fun, I'll time it the next time I shoot. :)

Edited September 8, 2007 by Brian Dzyak

[Brian Dzyak]

To be fair, you're talking about putting the mag on the camera and threading it, not taking a mag off, trading it for a fresh mag, and then threading it. It would take a superhero to do all that in 9 seconds. It is still faster than 90 seconds though.

 

True. :)

 

But on a regular basis, ACs who are experienced can do all of that in well under 30 seconds. When I was pulling focus, I wasn't that great at it and I could still do a complete mag change and rethread in under 30.

 

Maybe Local 600 could stage a Reload-off at the next union picnic. :)

[Häakon]

I am sure John merely used the film camera as an example of professional gear and did certainly not mean to suggest that digital cameras are not professional.

Except that digital cameras don't take 90 seconds to "reload." The point is that RED is slow to start up for a digital camera, and since there are plenty of pros who shoot digitally, this is a concern for more than just the "amateur market."

[Stephen Williams]

Except that digital cameras don't take 90 seconds to "reload." The point is that RED is slow to start up for a digital camera, and since there are plenty of pros who shoot digitally, this is a concern for more than just the "amateur market."

 

Hi Häakon,

 

I don't see a big issue with 90 seconds start up. I would have thought most pro's take more than 90 seconds to light the shot. For run & gun starting the camera before unpacking the kit should do the trick.

 

Just my 2c YMMV.

 

Stephen

[Max Jacoby]

I'm with Stephen on this one.

 

Once the camera is on sticks, dolly, crane, whatever, you usually leave it on, because otherwise there is no image, expecially in this case where you have an electronic viewfinder.

 

The only time you have to switch it off in that situation is if you have to swap batteries. The question is of course how much power the camera needs and how long the batteries last. It's the job of a good camera assistant to be aware of long the batteries last and when is the best time to swap them (i.e between setups, you don't want to do it just befoe the take when the light is going...)

[Brian Dzyak]

It's the job of a good camera assistant ...

 

 

It's the job of anyone calling themselves a Cameraman, DP, Videographer, Cinematographer, and Assistant. If you're in the camera department, you should know everything there is to know about the "Brownie" that is being used for the job. ACs aren't hired for every job out there.

 

:)

[Max Jacoby]

It's the job of anyone calling themselves a Cameraman, DP, Videographer, Cinematographer, and Assistant. If you're in the camera department, you should know everything there is to know about the "Brownie" that is being used for the job. ACs aren't hired for every job out there.

I don't quite agree with that. I have worked with Dops who were not even able to lace a camera. That did not prevent them from creating great lighting, which is what they were hired for. Since they don't do low end stuff, they always have ACs (and operators) anyway.

[Stephen Williams]

I don't quite agree with that. I have worked with Dops who were not even able to lace a camera. That did not prevent them from creating great lighting, which is what they were hired for. Since they don't do low end stuff, they always have ACs (and operators) anyway.

 

Hi Max,

 

I am fairly sure that David M has mentioned he does not know how to lace a Panavision.

 

Stephen

[Max Jacoby]

I worked with Benoit Delhomme and he did not seem to have huge technical knowledge either. Instead he was fascinating to observe because he has an incredible instinctual approach to lighting. It was almost like he could feel light, if it wasn't right it really seemed to hurt him and he changed and shaped it until he was happy with it. His films constantly look amazing I think.

[Brian Dzyak]

I don't quite agree with that. I have worked with Dops who were not even able to lace a camera. That did not prevent them from creating great lighting, which is what they were hired for. Since they don't do low end stuff, they always have ACs (and operators) anyway.

 

Wow, that is kind of an elitist statement, suggesting that anything that isn't a feature film is "low end."

 

And I will wholeheartedly disagree that a DPs ONLY responsibility is to know how to light. The Director of Photography at any level is responsible for overseeing the photography, which includes lighting and camera. On a feature, he is in charge of three different departments, Camera, Grip and Electric while working closely with other Department heads like the Director, the Production Designer, Costume Designer, Stunt Coordinator, Special Effects Coordinator, and Visual Effects Coordinator. While the "cameraman" doesn't have to specifically do the jobs that the others do or even have to know how they do them, he should have at least basic knowledge of what they do and how it will impact the photography.

 

In terms of what he should know specifically about the Camera Department, again, while he doesn't have to load mags, push carts, pull focus, or thread film, he should know how to do all of those things if for no other reason, he understands the limitations and parameters so that he can better advise Producers and Directors if and when technical/creative questions arise. A DP who knows very little or nothing about cameras, grips or lighting equipment will be a very ineffective leader.

 

As far as the so-called "low end" production goes, EVERYTHING that a "high end" DP is responsible for has to be done (usually) by just one person. A standard EFP crew consists of a Producer, a Cameraman and a Sound Mixer. Just because there are only two "technicians" on the shoot as opposed to twelve or more (as on a feature) doesn't mean that those jobs don't have to be done. That one person (Cameraman) on a a so-called "low end) shoot is responsible for lighting, camera setup, camera transportation, grip, electric, operating, and more often than not, production design/set design. And more often than it should be, the Videographer/Cameraman on "low end" productions wind up Directing because the Producers frequently aren't experienced enough to do anything beyond show up with a list of interview questions and smoke outside until the set is lit and ready.

 

So, DPs on features and on "low end" :rolleyes: productions are not merely there to light a set. They are managers of several departments and often have to do some of the specific work themselves depending upon the project itself.

[Max Jacoby]

Please Brian, you make assumptions that are completely wrong, as anyone can see straight away, since my quoted post is just above your answer.

 

Wow, that is kind of an elitist statement, suggesting that anything that isn't a feature film is "low end."

 

That's not what I said. I never used the word 'feature film' anywhere in my post.

 

And I will wholeheartedly disagree that a DPs ONLY responsibility is to know how to light.

That's not what I said either. I never used the word 'only' in my post.

 

Yes a cinematographer does need to have a general knowledge of what everyone in the crew does, but that is a far cry from having to know how long a battery will last, which was my initial point.

 

There are several levels of cinematographers and their work has different requirements. Those that work on say big-budget films or commercials are unlikely to get hired as a videographer on Arthur and Mary's wedding.

[Brian Dzyak]

Please Brian, you make assumptions that are completely wrong, as anyone can see straight away, since my quoted post is just above your answer.

That's not what I said. I never used the word 'feature film' anywhere in my post.

That's not what I said either. I never used the word 'only' in my post.

 

The inference of only feature projects was heavily implied. I'm sorry if I somehow misread your words. :)

 

Yes a cinematographer does need to have a general knowledge of what everyone in the crew does, but that is a far cry from having to know how long a battery will last, which was my initial point.

Again, the DP is ultimately responsible for the camera department and it is in his best interest to know specifics like how long a battery will last. Hypothetically, when that battery goes down on set when the camera is supposed to be rolling and the DP points a finger at his ACs, it will reflect back on him for A) not effectively choosing reliable equipment in the first place and B) choosing questionable crew who would "allow" technical problems affect the work.

 

There are several levels of cinematographers and their work has different requirements. Those that work on say big-budget films or commercials are unlikely to get hired as a videographer on Arthur and Mary's wedding.

And once again, whether you intend it or not, your last statement here is very elitist placing any type of production that isn't a feature film in the realm of wedding videos. There is a whole world of production out there that isn't feature films, commercials, news gathering and wedding videos. And while I haven't had any professional experience as a wedding videographer myself (save for the obligatory shooting the relatives wedding), I understand that those guys can make quite a bit of money (I've heard that one wedding can net them in the neighborhood of $5 grand and up for a couple days of work). So, as "amateurish" as some production may seem merely because they aren't rolling film through a gate, there are many levels and genres of production in which a variety of cameramen are making quite a bit of money...often more than ACs who have to work 14 hour days for half of the rate of an "amateur" "low end" Videographer.

 

And regardless of someone's position in the Camera Department, he/she should be aware of the technical abilities and limitations of the equipment that is being used. Being at the "top" is no excuse for not knowing why something isn't working. This is the kind of knowledge that can only usually be amassed by working up through the department as opposed to leaving film school with the title of "DP" on the business card right away.

 

If someone is renting a RED (or any other camera), it is his responsibility to know what it can do and what it can't, from the image acquisition properties to how it will perform in a variety of weather conditions. We're supposed to be the camera/lighting experts acting as the bridge between the technical requirements for a project and the creative and logistical requests from the Director and Production Department. Saying "I don't know, that's my ACs job" won't fly in any circumstance that I know of.

[Gary McClurg]

And while I haven't had any professional experience as a wedding videographer myself (save for the obligatory shooting the relatives wedding).

 

Don't you just hate that... you go to a relatives wedding and as soon as you walk in the door... they hand you a camera and expect you to shoot the wedding....