The Eclair ACL Magazine Thread

[Duncan Brown]

I have a thread about NPR mags, might as well have one for the ACL too, since I bought a used one that had some issues and took it apart to fix it.

The usual disclaimer about NEVER disassembling your gear - leave it to the pros.  This is not a how-to guide it's just some pictures I took along the way, that belongs in a thread for discussions of ACL magazine things.

One of two 400' mags I bought was jammed - you couldn't turn the thumbwheel in the takeup side of the mag, the drive spigot wouldn't turn.  Sometimes it would move a bit, kind of like jumping a gear tooth distance, then it would jam again.  So I decided to take it apart.  I started inside the takeup side of things and it turns out, for this problem at least, that wasn't required.  But it was good to learn how that stuff all goes together.  You take off a thin cover plate which exposes the belt a bit,  Then you take off the legend plate of the thumbwheel, which also pins in the drive sprocket plate,  because the rest of the drive assembly won't come off until you do.  Then the whole drive assembly comes out, with two springs in holes that press up against the little pinch roller assemblies.  Then you can see the whole drive belt (and where I discovered the mechanism was still just as jammed.)

So on to the other side of the mag, where the counters and drive spigot are.  Two screws remove the whole counter assembly, and this is one of those parts that goes SPROING when you remove it, as it is actually the thing providing the spring tension on the follower arm.  When putting it back together you have to take the legend plate and window off of it to be able to hold the wheel at the right spot, with tension, to get it all back together properly.  (If this all makes no sense, then remember what I said about leaving it to the pros!)

With that off, I can see the drive assembly cover but the gears are inside it.  Taking off the cover with two screws and then the solid machined piece, which also holds the drive spigot, reveals that it's a worm gear in bearings on the spigot and a gear on the back of the thumbwheel.  And now everything spins just fine.  I clean it up, regrease it, put it back together loosely and everything is still spinning fine.  It's not really obvious what was jamming it.  I tighten down the screws to the machined piece and... jammed.  I loosen it up a bit, notice that there's a tiny bit of play in it.  If I shove it down towards the bottom of the mag it's jammed.  If I shove it up towards the top of the mag it spins freely.  So I push it to that side and crank down on the screws and all is well.  NOT a big fan of a design where a piece is loosey-goosey like that, and where, say, a sharp blow (like dropping the mag) would allow things to get jammed.  But now I know.  (And so do you!)  I put everything back together and now it works perfectly.

Below are a few pics I took.  Note that one of the screws that holds the drive spigot machined holder on is longer than the others!  I have a pic where they are lined up with the holes they came out of, for reference.

Duncan

 

Edited October 14, 2023 by Duncan Brown

[Kamran Pakseresht]

General ACL Mag question - I recently signed a petition to get Kodak to offer 200’ reels for cameras like the ACL and the A-minima - but am I correct in assuming that they would need different wind types (a-wind for aminima and b-wind for acl) - or could they be used interchangeably?

[Duncan Brown]

The ACL (and, I believe, every other camera on the planet OTHER than the A-Minima) uses B-wind.  The A-minima needs more than just A-wind film, it needs those goofy reels.  And unless Kodak is supplying it on those reels, it seems pointless to care how the film comes for an A-minima, since you're going to be respooling it onto your own existing A-minima reel anyway, no? 

The NPR mags can actually be loaded with EI (normal) or EO film.  But does that mean it can also be loaded with A-wind film?  My brain hurts trying to figure that out, but it's academic in terms of your question, since there are no 200' NPR mags anyway (that I know of).

Duncan

[Gregg MacPherson]

Duncan,

Great stuff! I have done a near full tear down on 2-1/2 English 400' mags. Some of the parts look identical, and others are a different design. A toothed belt shifts power across the mag body to the take up arm drive spindle from where another toothed belt drives two little rubber tyres that run on the film. And the footage counter is a complicated little mechanical number counter with complicated drive system. And the take up arm spring tension adjustment has machinery and needs some deft handling. So there could be grounds for separating that one. I started a thread on those to bust some common myths about them and made a patchy attempt to document some of the tear down..    https://cinematography.com/index.php?/forums/topic/91664-english-acl-400-mags-facts-and-myths/

Back to the here and now....

I'm going to use the part names and numbers in the parts pdf,  I'll just list some below and note your terminology in " ". I may use some shorthand, like dwg for drawing (not the file type) and assy for assembly.

- 315E, in the 200' mag dwg is the feed sprocket assy. (Duncan..."thumbwheel in the take up side"). In the 400' mag dwg it is 730E but it doesn't show in a parts list. I think Duncan spotted that there is a page missing or something.

- 325E, magazine drive assembly (Duncan..."drive spigot").

- 325, called driving axel bearing in the parts pdf, I'll call it the mag drive assy housing (Duncan..."the solid machined piece")

Re the mag drive assy housing (325) being wiggly, not positioned precisely by the design engineering...I don;t remember the Eng mags being so, but it was a while ago. I do have a disassembled donor magazine here that is a mongrel...French throat, english body, take up system. This particular mag also has an imprecisely positioned (wiggley) mag drive assy housing. it looks like the machined surfaces should fit precisely in the chanel in the body, but no. I did notice that the loose fit of the screws was more on the ones further from the gear, so when you wiggle the housing the part near the gear is moving less.

There is a good chance that my donor mag has been fiddled with. Some simple explanation may be there, like the Eng and French parts being different, and were swapped. I will at some point service the French mags I have, so will solve this riddle then. Meantime, if anyone knows the answer already, please spill.

Gregg.

PS: a correction re the transmision to the take up arm drive spindle above is in italics...

Edited October 28, 2023 by Gregg MacPherson

[Boris Belay]

On 10/15/2023 at 6:46 PM, Duncan Brown said:

The ACL (and, I believe, every other camera on the planet OTHER than the A-Minima) uses B-wind.  The A-minima needs more than just A-wind film, it needs those goofy reels.  And unless Kodak is supplying it on those reels, it seems pointless to care how the film comes for an A-minima, since you're going to be respooling it onto your own existing A-minima reel anyway, no? 

The NPR mags can actually be loaded with EI (normal) or EO film.  But does that mean it can also be loaded with A-wind film?  My brain hurts trying to figure that out, but it's academic in terms of your question, since there are no 200' NPR mags anyway (that I know of).

Duncan

The ACL magazines also take either winds, you just need to make sure the perforations are towards the bottom of the magazine when you load them in your bag.  Then the film either unwinds clockwise or counter-clockwise.  Both work fine, as discribed in the manual.

Now, if Kodak were to make those A-minima rolls again (or if you were to get on aold stock of them), remember that they can be used in both NPRs and ACLs, since you can pull out he plastic flanges and you get a normal Kodal film core.

[Boris Belay]

On 10/15/2023 at 1:37 AM, Duncan Brown said:

With that off, I can see the drive assembly cover but the gears are inside it.  Taking off the cover with two screws and then the solid machined piece, which also holds the drive spigot, reveals that it's a worm gear in bearings on the spigot and a gear on the back of the thumbwheel.  And now everything spins just fine.  I clean it up, regrease it, put it back together loosely and everything is still spinning fine.  It's not really obvious what was jamming it.  I tighten down the screws to the machined piece and... jammed.  I loosen it up a bit, notice that there's a tiny bit of play in it.  If I shove it down towards the bottom of the mag it's jammed.  If I shove it up towards the top of the mag it spins freely.  So I push it to that side and crank down on the screws and all is well.  NOT a big fan of a design where a piece is loosey-goosey like that, and where, say, a sharp blow (like dropping the mag) would allow things to get jammed.  But now I know.  (And so do you!)  I put everything back together and now it works perfectly.

Duncan, the 'loosey-goosey' design that you are complaining about is an intentional one which allows you to adjust the interplay of the meshing gears to your 'liking', depending on your grease, for instance, but mostly to minimize noise and power draw.  The same adjustments are possible on the camera body on the axis that drives the shutter (back of the main plate, so visible without removing the main plate from the body).

When I adjust an ACL, I always use an amp-meter to set it to the least current draw (and noise).  This also holds when resetting the motor-bearing plate (the 4-screw plate onto which the motor attaches).

Edited October 24, 2023 by Boris Belay

[Gregg MacPherson]

7 hours ago, Boris Belay said:

Duncan, the 'loosey-goosey' design that you are complaining about is an intentional one which allows you to adjust the interplay of the meshing gears to your 'liking', depending on your grease, for instance, but mostly to minimize noise and power draw.  The same adjustments are possible on the camera body on the axis that drives the shutter (back of the main plate, so visible without removing the main plate from the body).

When I adjust an ACL, I always use an amp-meter to set it to the least current draw (and noise).  This also holds when resetting the motor-bearing plate (the 4-screw plate onto which the motor attaches).

Thanks Boris...that answers that question. Was there originally a special service tool to set the alignment, gear clearance for the mag dive assembly (325E)...?

When aligning the mag drive assy did you have the mag mounted on a camera? I may remember doing that.

How were you adjusting the gear clearance? Were the screws loose enough to adjust the clearance by feel, then check the noise and amps? No cigarette paper between the dry gears or some arcane thing like that?

The gear clearance for the transmission shaft assy (52E), driving the shutter shaft, in contrast has very precise adjustment with the wedge, but I wondered how the gear clearance was chosen. Again, for this one also, were there special tools, or some precise criteria, or is it by feel, checking the noise and amps?

Gregg.

[Duncan Brown]

On 10/24/2023 at 5:05 PM, Boris Belay said:

Duncan, the 'loosey-goosey' design that you are complaining about is an intentional one which allows you to adjust the interplay of the meshing gears to your 'liking', depending on your grease, for instance, but mostly to minimize noise and power draw.  The same adjustments are possible on the camera body on the axis that drives the shutter (back of the main plate, so visible without removing the main plate from the body).

When I adjust an ACL, I always use an amp-meter to set it to the least current draw (and noise).  This also holds when resetting the motor-bearing plate (the 4-screw plate onto which the motor attaches).

OK that makes sense, but to a point I think Gregg was getting at, it's kind of unusual to even have an adjustment be so vague.  I would expect shims and a spec on backlash or something, not a "kind of move it around until it feels good, or the motor has the least power draw" arrangement.  I suspect the one I had was OK when it left the ebay seller, but impacts during shipment allowed it to move.  Or perhaps it was the legendary "ACL magazine falls off because you didn't use a clothespin" impact during its last use?

But in any event, it's working now, and it all makes sense - nothing inherently wrong with my magazine, and I fixed it the correct way.

Duncan