Mitch Gross Posted June 9, 2004 Share Posted June 9, 2004 Check it out--it'll debut at Cinegear this weekend. http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr/craft...t_id=1000527854 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Steelberg ASC Posted June 9, 2004 Share Posted June 9, 2004 This is what I was referring to in my other post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Gross Posted June 9, 2004 Author Share Posted June 9, 2004 Yes, NDAs keep me quiet or at least coy in comments all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pete Wright Posted June 9, 2004 Share Posted June 9, 2004 Wow, this is real nice. I wonder if and when Sony brand will follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Phil Rhodes Posted June 9, 2004 Premium Member Share Posted June 9, 2004 Hi, Don't love it just because it says "panavision" on the side. "Panavision" is rather like "Sony" (no quip intended) - quite nice, but really complicated and expensive. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Rodriguez Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 When do the NDA's come off and we can get some info. Hopefully not in Novemeber :unsure:. Cause I got some questions :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Brennan Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 12 megapixels in "super 35 aspect ratio" gives us how many H x V pixels? Maybe after the bayer filtering (assumption) a true 3k camcorder? Now they can move on to sorting out dynamic range. Of course the cost of renting this kit will put it out of reach of 95% of film makers... A week after demonstrating the 4k projector they announce the 12megapixel camera. A lot of what Sony does is about capturing the market, not necessarily serving the market. But with the srw1 recorder delivery being delayed and f950 not being launched outside of the USA, pointers that something was in the wings, this camera may indeed be Sony's international rival to the viper and d20. Sony's rival to film is still on the drawing board. Will *it* have a Panasinic badge? Mike Brennan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Steelberg ASC Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 When do the NDA's come off and we can get some info. Hopefully not in Novemeber :unsure:. Cause I got some questions :) I'll be at Cinegear on Friday to visit my PanaRep and will get some info. Apparently though, one of the most significant things about this camera is more range in highlights. I'm also thinking...to myself here...that the sensor will future proof the camera in a way...at least for a while..until a tape or recording format can catch up to the full data potential of the raw data. It should be able to scale to any resolution up to it's native size. Anyone else have any thoughts on this...Phil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenolian Bell Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 Another article. And another surprise Panavision is also bring another film camera to market. http://www.uemedia.net/CPC/cinematographer...icle_8554.shtml Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenolian Bell Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 Also all of these 35mm size chips coming to market puts to rest one of the last myths. That 35mm optics aren't good enough for HD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Steelberg ASC Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 Well actually, I think that was true and why companies like Panavision made separate HD lenses. They wouldn't have done it if they didn't have to. The reason, as I understand it, is due to the small pixel size of the smaller sensors which neccessitate better glass to get a sharper smaller image focused on the chip. That's a simple way of explaining it. Now there is a larger sensor with presumably larger pixels making a same size image so 35 lenses should be sufficient...unless Panavision also has some new Primo 2s up their sleeves. This is all a guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Rodriguez Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 Well, my biggest question is what is being recorded to the HDCAM-SR tape format? Can HDCAM-SR record more than HD resolutions? And can it record multiple frame-rates? You have a 12 megapixel sensor in there, but especially at 50fps, where is all that information going? Is it being downsampled, or do they ever plan on including method where you can get all the information off that chip to a hard-drive, etc.? How good are their bayer demosaic algorithms, or again, are they planning on sampling the actual resolution to get a 'real' 3K? Also, how "raw" is the data coming off the camera onto tape? I know it's 10-bit log, but how much processing, matrix, sharpening, etc. is being applied to the image before it hits tape? Is it like the Viper, or is there a number of post-processing fuctions already done to the footage that would limit our control in post? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Barham Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 I'm assuming that the introduction of a Panavision digital camera won't mark the end of their rental-only policy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Max Jacoby Posted June 10, 2004 Premium Member Share Posted June 10, 2004 I like this: "With Genesis, the docking recorder travels on the top and rear of the camera to simulate the look and feel ?- as well as the convenience -- of the Panaflex." Is this so we won't have to feel embarassed about shooting HD? :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Rodriguez Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 Actually I think it's that SRW-1 on the camera that seals the deal for this thing in motion-picture film production for now. Everybody else has wires, etc. coming out the back, but the Panavision will be able to record 10-bit log RGB direct to tape at 880Mbit/s, which is 3:1 compression I believe (or something like that), and that's going to be very good quality, especially if it can handle the highlights well. I mean you shouldn't be able to see any compression artifacting at 3:1 on a first generation copy, especially if it's like digibeta. So much for Dalsa and the SGI computer they're going to be lugging around, or Arri and the three HD-SDI outputs you'll have to manage (unless you want their 150fps), unless Arri figures out something to get on-board recording that won't tether you to a bunch of wires. For right now I guess the game's Panavision's (oh and they have 50% more resolution to boot-12 Megapixels, that's KODAK's number for the resolution of 35mm film, so there shouldn't be any more complaining that film has "more resolution". Maybe more dynamic range, hopefully that's been fixed in the Panavision to comparable standards of film, but still, they'll be the king of resolution) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Wells Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 For right now I guess the game's Panavision's (oh and they have 50% more resolution to boot-12 Megapixels, that's KODAK's number for the resolution of 35mm film, so there shouldn't be any more complaining that film has "more resolution". Maybe more dynamic range, hopefully that's been fixed in the Panavision to comparable standards of film, but still, they'll be the king of resolution) Sampling, but as Mike suggests isn't it going to be effectively more like 3K ? Perverse thought du jour: what if you swapped out the F900 for this on a Vialta telecine :lol: -Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Brennan Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 Here are my best guesses in response to some earlier questions and observations about the genesis of Genesis It is theoretically possible to do a diy trick and bolt the SRW1 onto the f950, 950, D20, Viper or Kinetta. Angle iron and two BNCs are all that are required. The unexplained delayed introduction of the SRW1 recorder has given the Genesis a head start in the SR 2k+ "camcorder" field. For the last week I had thought Sony had shot themselves in both feet by announcing a 4K projector without a 3k+ camera to support it... it would have been a good excuse for some producers to continue to bury their heads in the sand (regarding HD cameras) and certainly a 4k projector for $60k was a fillip for those pursuing DI, as it should be. So the last week has been a setback for HD origination in general, in my view, until this announcement. The SRW1 can record 1920x 1080 dual 444 by compressing 4.2:1. It also has a 2x speed mode that reduces compression of 444 to 2:1 If you combine (my guess) the 4.2:1 compression with the 2x speed mode it is theoretically capable of recording more pixels. There has to be some number crunching going on with this 12meg head, our old HDCAM friend sampling may come to the fore! So this camera may "only" be a approx 5.1k x2.3k (super 35mm ratio?) image sampled in camera to fit an existing 1920x1080 recording structure? However the 4k Dalsa images sampled to 2k have looked better than the 2k originated images in the DCI tests, when projected on the 2k projector. Originating at higher res reduces aliasing. Would be interesting to see if their is much lag between Bayer processing of 12megapixels and viewfinder output. However the Accuscene viewfinder may be doing more than converting 444 and displaying 720 p as it does at the moment, it may have the potential for displaying a bayer image "live" I expect. More than 1/4 second lag makes it impossible to operate remote heads! Battery consumption will be interesting. And indeed we don't really know how well 35mm lenses will perform, wibbly wobbly film with a different grain structure from frame to frame is a very different form of recording to a rock solid noiseless sensor being projected one to one on a large screen. Someone mentioned Sony selling these cameras, this would be a big mistake unless they really revamped their customer support and servicing. Perhaps one specialised dealer per continent could cope with such a high fidelity piece of kit and the customers who intend to use it. I believe they are aware of this:) This is not the end of the road but just another step. Sony will make money on the recording format not the development of the camera. Just like the development of a 4k projector the goal is hidden aren't for proding 100,00 units for cnemas but 50 million for home cinema. Fun to guess, hope that their is not too much time and hype before the reality hits. Hope this post gives stateside DPs some background when quizzing the creators of Genesis. Mike Brennan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Rodriguez Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 So what do you think Mike, begining of the end for film in most main-stream applications? I'm just saying this because I too saw the Dalsa footage, and it simply amazed me. If the Panavision does even better, then all I can say is "Whoa". You'll have the advantage of tape, slo-motion and off-speed effects, super-high resolution that matches 35mm film, a ton of dynamic range, RGB recording, and the cheap flexibility of tape. What more is there, especially if the Panavision comes in at a competative price point for rentals compared to other digital cinema cameras ($3,000 per day for the Dalsa)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Filip Plesha Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 Jason, 35mm film is capable of more resolution than 4K. It all depends on the emulsion of course and your lenses. But if you are using some film like 5245 on a static shot with no camera movement (no motion blur) and a good lens, the film can resolve as much as 6K resolution or more. The response to detail after 6K is pretty low but it still does respond to detail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Downes Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 Anyone wanna try and compare 4k to 65mm/70mm film? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenolian Bell Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 Well actually, I think that was true and why companies like Panavision made separate HD lenses. They wouldn't have done it if they didn't have to. The reason, as I understand it, is due to the small pixel size of the smaller sensors which neccessitate better glass to get a sharper smaller image focused on the chip. That is pretty much the reason why they made different HD lens'. But that's a bit different from saying 35mm optics aren't good enough at all for HD which is what was being said back in 2000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenolian Bell Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 So what do you think Mike, begining of the end for film in most main-stream applications? Is film dead yet poppa smurf? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Filip Plesha Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 It seems to me like every new camera that comes out is "the film killer". Film died out many times. It first died when cinealta came out, then it died when viper came out, and now it is dying again because of genesis. Which brings me to the conclusion that there is afterlife after all, at least for film, it just keeps comming back from its grave. I wonder how many times will it die untill it really dies. And of course, Panavision is introducing the new XL2 to berry it together with film (or cremate it) and no other reason. Actually it is getting quite funny to hear such things. Film is dead! Long live the film! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Brennan Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 "So what do you think Mike, begining of the end for film in most main-stream applications?" I don't know, but high end features will still be shot on film in 20 years if Kodak are still manufacturing and processing it. The means of production will still exist for film for decades in the form of cameras and lenses and no matter what the quality or performance of alternative industrial processes, artists will choose what they like or are accustomed too while others will continue to choose what they have made money on, until there is a clear path to make more money on the alternative process. So those who have a significant financial, career or political investment in the industrial process called "film making" will understandably continue to defend and support it. So a successful 40 year old DP will continue to knock out good pictures on film for another 25 years. Those with enough energy to embrace new technology while maintaing equilibrium with current film process will do well. In decades to come, filmakers who want to shoot film for asethetic, emotional or nostalgic reasons may well be able to continue using film, I hope so. In the western, capitalist world there are very few mainstream industrial craft based processes that survive progress. Film makers won't kill film, Sony won't kill film, Kodak will. Mike Brennan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Filip Plesha Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 Very interesting point Mike. I belive that the real death of film will be predictable when Kodak stopes investing in R & D for MP film. After that there should be about 10 years of manufacturing with the "old" technology or more who knows. It seems that Kodak does not have a problem with manufacturing film, but rather with developing of film technology. Just look at Kodachrome or 8mm films. Surely the don't pay off as much as they did in 70's but they still make them. And as for R & D , I don't think that Kodak plan's to abandon MP film yet. They are working right now on some new vision2 films, and I bet that they are going to develop another line of MP films after vision2 untill they stop researching. This combined with what I said above gives similar predictions as you made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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