Director's viewfinder

Adam Paul · May 30, 2006

...and i use blank focus rings;

Sorry, but what's a blank focus ring?

A Pentafinder for example and a lens are much harder to put together. And the Pentafinder also has this annoying vacuum effect that makes getting the lens off a lot harder than getting it off a camera.

Do you have a link to this Pentafinder? Or maybe just pictures on some site? Don't know that one and a google search didn't turn up anything. The only PL finders I know are the Kish and the Cavision.

Daniel Stigler · May 30, 2006

Sorry, but what's a blank focus ring?
Do you have a link to this Pentafinder? Or maybe just pictures on some site? Don't know that one and a google search didn't turn up anything. The only PL finders I know are the Kish and the Cavision.

I meant i don't double the focus marks on the lens to those white discs on the follow focus. I leave them blank.

Sorry, i didn't find a link to the Pentafinder, but have a look at http://www.gecko-cam.com/html/Hauptseite%20deutsch.htm

In the left upper corner you can see their viewfinder which looks like an exact copy of the Penta. With a difference in color. The Penta is red anodized.

Laurent Andrieux · May 30, 2006

I meant i don't double the focus marks on the lens to those white discs on the follow focus. I leave them blank.

Why not ? I think it really hassles your focus work not to do so.

Well, ok for a 2 days shooting or a short, but on a normal feature or TV films it helps a lot to have marked rings. You can even focus without prep, then. Helps on rehearsals, too.

I wouldn't say using the camera to find the right lens was easier than using a viewfinder.

I don't think I even mentioned that... It actually depends a lot on the situation. In super 16 for instance, it's not such an hassle to do so, by the way. When you are on a dolly (panther, Hybrid, Peewee..), you can search the frame with the camera quite easily even in 35 mm... And with anamorphic lenses...

And let's not forget there are to different situations, one being scouting on a location, when you don't have the camera and the alternates are viewfinder/lens finder and the other situation being finding a frame during shooting.

In that case I think the lens finder is more precise than a viewfinder, that's all, and it's always better not to have to change the lens on the camera for many reasons. I like better to have a decision made and then set up the shot than putting a lens, then change it etc.

It's also for everybody around. When it's clear you are looking for the frame, everybody knows you are. When you have put a lens on the camera, everybody thinks you have done and begins to work. If you change it, it may have consequences... For instance a DA thinks he's got the field of view and begins to prep it or the boom operator etc.

Bob Hayes · May 30, 2006

What do you mean? The corresponding field of view for a given focal length on a Mark V as compared to what it really is on the prime?

I found that when I set up a shot with a finder set to a specific lens it didn?t always match the lens on the camera. So I went to a rental house and set my finder to a real lens. I used a zoom lens. Then out of curiosity I checked it with against a prime of the same focal length and it was different. So I lined up matching cameras and started matching different lenses and they were often noticeably different. This was especially true matching zooms to primes.

Daniel Stigler · May 30, 2006

Why not ? I think it really hassles your focus work not to do so.

Well, ok for a 2 days shooting or a short, but on a normal feature or TV films it helps a lot to have marked rings. You can even focus without prep, then. Helps on rehearsals, too.

Well, i mark the discs on wireless focus units at prep so i just have to slap them on when i change the lens during shooting. With a normal follow focus it doesn't help me because i prefer to read the markings on the lens and occasionally put a mark or two on the plastic disc. It's the way that's works best for me.

I hope we're not getting into an argument here.

Laurent Andrieux · May 30, 2006

I hope we're not getting into an argument here.

Certainly not. I think we are having an interesting discussion. This topic hasn't been discussed that often around here, actually.

i mark the discs on wireless focus units at prep

Do you mean with a steadicam ? do you mean the film prep before shooting or the shot prep on location ?

i prefer to read the markings on the lens

I know some people fear that the marks on the FF don't correspond to the lens' marks... If the wheels don't get off, it doesn't happen. And they should not get off. (Happened to me once, because we had to "quick quick" go for another take after I had checked the gate... )

On the other hand, in many situations, it's not easy to watch the lens' marks. But I respect this point of view. I consider it's more work at each shot to do so... but certainly you are right saying it's what one feels like...

Daniel Stigler · May 31, 2006

Do you mean with a steadicam ? do you mean the film prep before shooting or the shot prep on location ?

On the other hand, in many situations, it's not easy to watch the lens' marks. But I respect this point of view. I consider it's more work at each shot to do so... but certainly you are right saying it's what one feels like...

Yes, with a steadycam or with remoteheads or situations like that.

I mean the camera prep at the rental place. Marking up discs in the field is a pain in the ass, so i always do that before we start shooting.

Lately i followed the current trend to use a wireless remote focus a lot and there rarely is a shooting day where i can't make good use of it.

Adam Paul · May 31, 2006

Ok Bob, I?m trying to follow but I?m not sure I do, so please bare with me : )

I found that when I set up a shot with a finder set to a specific lens it didn?t always match the lens on the camera.

A Mark V type or PL type?

So I went to a rental house and set my finder to a real lens.

What do you mean and how did you do that?

I used a zoom lens. Then out of curiosity I checked it with against a prime of the same focal length and it was different. So I lined up matching cameras and started matching different lenses and they were often noticeably different. This was especially true matching zooms to primes.

Interesting. Does the difference poses a real problem in your opinion? Is it big enough to get things off?

Max Jacoby · May 31, 2006

Lately i followed the current trend to use a wireless remote focus a lot and there rarely is a shooting day where i can't make good use of it.

One of the reasons I like the focus-puller whom I usually use is that he focusses as much as possible with the followfocus. Especially if you have big focus pulls, doing it that way makes the focus pulls look more organic. The remote focus does not have as much feeling.

David Mullen ASC · May 31, 2006

Not really a focus-puller issue so much, but the main reason why I don't like Steadicam and remote cranes is the lack of someone actually looking through the eyepiece during the take, which makes me nervous, especially if the only image anyone is seeing on the set is some crummy transmitted video tap signal.

Daniel Stigler · May 31, 2006

Especially if you have big focus pulls, doing it that way makes the focus pulls look more organic. The remote focus does not have as much feeling.

Avoid the Preston! It is slow and has a lot of delay. My current favorit is the new Chrosziel Aladin with digital Scorpio Motors.

Stephen Williams · May 31, 2006

I found that when I set up a shot with a finder set to a specific lens it didn?t always match the lens on the camera. So I went to a rental house and set my finder to a real lens. I used a zoom lens. Then out of curiosity I checked it with against a prime of the same focal length and it was different. So I lined up matching cameras and started matching different lenses and they were often noticeably different. This was especially true matching zooms to primes.

Hi,

The reason that the image size between a zoom and a prime does not match is that the front nodal point of the 2 lenses don't match. They may well be 12 inches apart, and will move as you zoom. This is the reason that a Samcine DOF calculator has 2 scales, 1 for a zoom and 1 for primes.

DOF is also calculated from the front nodal point of a lens, not the film plane. This is the reason that some people have said, (including myself) that a zoom may have less DOF than a Prime. I thought I proved it to myself by changing between a zoom and a prime. I then noticed that the image size on then negative was not the same. When I then moved the camera so that the image size was identical, the DOF was also the same.

Stephen

Dave Perkal ASC · March 29, 2009

I use a PL on set. I can line up a big dolly move with track or dance floor quickly. I usually 99% shoot on primes so once the track/dance floor or crane position is laid it is a commitment. I move the camera a lot, even if its a subtle move or correction. Using the shooting lens to line up with a finder saves everyone time. The whole crew can see the shot and the lens without asking. Good boom operators, set decs, grips and elec just watch me call camera moves 1, 2 and 3 and they can see the focal length of the lens and they know what is in or out without asking. It saves time and needless conversations among professionals. Which means more time for lighting and crew rehearsal.

Bob Hayes · March 30, 2009

Another side note/question...
Anyone know of a Directors Finder for B4 video lenses? Such as digi-primes or HD zooms?

Thanks, Rich Robbins

From what I’ve heard digital lenses don’t focus correctly on a ground glass. They arte designed to go through a prism.

Also with regards to the pros and cons of a Mark V or PL mount director’s finder. The Mark V style finder just doesn’t work with prime lenses. If I set a camera using that style of finder we often have to adjust the camera to find the exact frame we want. With a PL style finder we nail it. If you are on a zoom and don’t mind fudging the lens a bit the Mark V is fine. In the long run the real lens on a finder is fast.

I don’t know what shows you guys work on but every day feels like the Indianapolis 500 to me.